Canadian Poverty

Category: Economic Impacts

posted by Steven

Saturday, January 23, 2010 3:08 PM

As easy oil becomes scarce the world will turn to places like the oil sands. You may think that Canada will become a rich country. As the world turns more to Canada for oil, the dollar will be forced to rise. Canada is an exporting country and will loose it’s competitive edge. Many jobs are going to be lost to be replaced by a few oil jobs. The rest of the country will become like the Maritimes. The good news is Canada’s oil production according to Wikipedia will peak in the 2020’s. The second largest oil reserves will only buy the world 10 to 15 years of oil. The price will be your quality of life. You won’t see the money that the oil sands generate unless you are a shareholder.

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Long Live the Oil Sands
posted by David McColl   Monday, January 25, 2010 12:25 PM
Steven,

Let’s dispel the first “myth” in your post. Canada is already and rich country, as the oil sands is exploited over the next century our wealth will continue to increase and ought to keep us within the “rich” (whatever you mean by that) nation status. While Wikipedia is often an excellent source for information (sarcasm included), it is by no means the best source of information. Canada’s conventional onshore oil production is already on a steady decline; a peak that has long since pasted. As for the oil sands, with over 170 billion barrels kicking around, and another 130 billion that could be unlocked with technology advancements, the concept of a “peak oil sands” argument is very far off in the distance.

Independent institutions such as the Canadian Energy Research Institute (www.ceri.ca) have been providing economic research on the oil sands for over a decade. Some of their most recent work (Canadian Oil Sands Supply Costs and Development Projects (2009 - 2043)) easily dispels such a myth of “peak production” from the oil sands. By some accounts, the oil sands could help push Canada’s total oil production to well over 6 million barrels per day by 2040; the oil sands could account for most of that production, followed by enhanced oil recovery and other sources. This doesn’t even take into account the massive “wealth” that exists in the Arctic, a source of wealth that could provide long-term revenues and jobs to the Arctic communities.

CERI’s estimates for the economic impacts from the oil sands (http://www.ceri.ca/documents/CERIIOFinalReport.pdf) indicate that the job creation (long-term) could actually offset all of Canada’s unemployment (excluding Ontario and Quebec) over the next 30 years. Granted, this doesn’t imply a matching of skills which is a separate matter and will require increased immigration and retraining to match skills with jobs. Couple that with the estimate that the wealth, as measured by GDP could rise by over a trillion in 30 years – that is almost our current GDP in Canada.

There analysis does not take into account the unanswered question: within all the public and private pensions, RRSP, RESP, etc., in Canada, what percentage of the portfolio includes oil sands or industries that are directly or indirectly impacted by the industry? I would suggest the answer would shock those people that think they are not impacted by the oil sands. In fact, it may make them think twice about the integrated nature of the Canadian economy.

The second largest oil reserve in the world will last for well over a century, and if technology innovation has anything to say about that, we can expect the oil sands to act as a long-term transition fuel source as the world slowly moves towards lower carbon fuel sources (innovated in situ extraction could make the oil sands just such a source as well); oh, and don’t expect that to happen within the next several decades.

I strongly encourage you to read the CERI reports, while they are a little dry at times the information contained within them is extremely valuable and informative.

Sincerely,
David McColl
Director
DCM Energy Associates Ltd.

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posted by Innadiated   Monday, January 25, 2010 12:53 PM
While the oilsands may have a "peak" very far off in the distance, peak here being the 50% of the total amount of bitumen recoverable the real question is how much of canadas supply can we replace? With the rest of the worlds supplies dwindling, the question isn't about the total amount of oil possible to extract, the real question is, what will be the maximum daily production possible in the oilsands? Most projects estimate output in the hundreds of thousands, where as demand just within canada is in the millions per day. The U.S. is upwards of 20million per day.

Just like my post at ( http://www.canadasoilsands.com/en/forum/topic.aspx?id=126 ) and as stated and backed up in the movie Collapse, not to mention many books and economic articles out today, the world has already entered a daily decreasing supply of energy, and we have already felt what a taste of $150 / barrel oil feels like. While this was "good" for Alberta, if you ask the majority of people that are just normal citizens in normal jobs, this "boom" hurt them financially. Or has everyone forgot tent city?

Sorry but Steven is right, the reports your citing do not take into account a world supply of dwindling oil, nor do they account for the resources needed to find bitumen and plant new extraction facilities. Nevermind the oil used to transport the workers etc etc.

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Perhaps, but not really
posted by David McColl   Monday, January 25, 2010 3:31 PM
It is estimated that there remains over 10 to 11 trillion barrels of oil in place, how much can we recover, likely a small but relevant fraction. But that fraction grows as the price of oil rises - which creates an incentive for technological innovation to unlock this “trapped” potential. The oil sands Carbonates and Oil Shale deposits in the U.S. are excellent examples of a resource that is trapped, like the oil sands was decades ago, and offshore decades before that. This is part of what will combat the issue of “dwindling conventional oil”, alternative sources of energy will also help combat the issue of less conventional oil, and relatively more expensive unconventional sources. Ignoring the impact of economics and innovation conveniently allows people to ignore our species history and quiet frankly, evolution. The rapid rise to $150 was a cause for concern and the eventual rise back to $150 will merely indicate the rising cost of oil as a direct result of less “cheap” oil and more expensive oil that will be deeper underground and/or harder to access; assuming the rise isn’t as rapid as prior. The taste of $150 was an incentive for consumers to move away from their gas hungry vehicles towards more efficient vehicles. That’s a good thing for everyone, not just Albertans who benefits from the royalties, and who purchase goods and services, mostly from outside of Alberta. The era of Cheap Oil is over, the era of “slightly more expensive oil” is upon us. (please repeat statement every few decades). David McColl

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posted by Innadiated   Tuesday, January 26, 2010 12:09 AM
Hmm, so what kind of vehicle would you suggest that contains no oil products? Your argument for gasoline is great, nevermind the materials and transportation needed to construct cars, and engines. Seriously, look around the room your in, name ONE thing in there that in no way shape or form had any impact with any petrochemical products or services.

Who estimates 11trillion barrels? the saudi's won't say how much they have. Alberta has a piddly 390billion that can be processed at a very slow rate.

So with everything rising in cost, including power generation, materials, food, etc etc. How exactly are alternative car fuels going to help? How about airplane fuels? or military tanks.

Today, we have a decline in oil production nearing roughly 8million barrels / day. So that means every day that passes, we need to find new sources to counteract this 8million barrels, as well as find even more new sources to counter the increasing demand. Saying that high prices will cause people to lower consumption is the same as saying, THEY WILL BE POOR. Thus not being able to afford the same lifestyle luxuries they currently enjoy.

Spin it all you want, its still the same thing.

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Argument Pt. 2 - The Economy
posted by Innadiated   Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:56 AM
Now that I can't seem to sleep and have had time to review your comment, i feel you are not only severely underestimating the scope of energy depletion, you also in turn seem to be overlooking the practical workings of our economy as well. As for the evolution comment, that comes with change.. I don't see how trying to continously prop up a dying idealistic economic model has anything to do with evolution, if it does it would be that ridding ourselves of it would be the next step in evolution.

Now, the economy. You say, by lowering consumption, we can avoid this whole mess of energy depletion, at least for a while until the magic god-fairy comes to deliver us with the savior technology. But wouldn't reducing consumption in turn also reduce spending? Wouldn't reducing spending cause revenue estimations not to be met. Wouldn't this very situation describe negative growth, and therfore a recession?

Let me explain how our economy works, as it seems a lot of people believe money grows on trees (which isn't that far off from the truth). Our economy is basically "rated" on a gross domestic produce or "GDP". A negative GDP is bad.. or at least, thats what we're told. Infinite growth is the key to keeping this economic roller coaster going. Now modern produce is 100% intertwined with.. you guessed it, oil! farmers use chemicals for their crops, its needed to create the alloys we construct cars out of, we cannot have a modern industrialized society without it. Plastics, Rubber, EVERYTHING!! So what happens, our economy says "produce more!!" so more energy goes in, and more useless junk comes out. Kids can now get a new cell phone every year, all made with petrochemical based plastics and electronics. So lets reduce consumption right? no biggie.. but oh oh, the economy says we cannot do that. This lowers growth, this reduces our productivity, and definitely doesn't help the GDP.

So we have a bit of a problem, we are being told to survive and live, we must support a system that is in itself provably flawed, we KNOW it will end, we just don't know when. Some think in 50 years we'll be flying high with vehicles made out of compost running on vegtable oil. Others think oil is actually infinite, or at least around long enough for them to cash in on their retirement portfolio, and then you have people reading stories about energy shortages in the U.K., the collapsing U.S. economy, water shortages almost worldwide (10 year drought here in alberta, booya!) and these people see something far from the rosy outlook you would have us believe.
We already sacrifice a lot for an economic system that WE created. Yup, its not a force of nature or god, we created it. Its sitting in accounts in computers. Data transfers, all that crap. Its crap, because its really not going to do anything for us, if that very system cannot be maintained by us which brings us to the dilemna. What to do? Well if we continue to grow, we will probably see lots of profits in the short term, until everything gets so expensive, supply lanes stop working, and all of a sudden those christmas oranges you like so much at christmas don't show up. That sucks! you say.. better luck next year, then you see those lively imported bananas arn't showing up anymore. Then its your favorite mass produced cereal. When things do come back, they are in limited supply and the price has sky rocketed, this happens over a period of time and before you know it most food is quite expensive, although you wouldn't notice over the high gas prices.

You see, its not the complete depletion society needs to worry about, its the current resources we need to worry about. Not in a economic incentive way either, the economy is outdated, sorry to say. It is in direct opposition to what we know to be true which is we CANNOT have infinite growth, and denying that is like saying the earth is flat.

Edit: I incorrectly labelled GDP as "growth domestic produce", I had the word growth on my mind :/ Gross.. is the correct word.

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Dear Innadiated
posted by Government of AB   Tuesday, January 26, 2010 4:49 PM
If the David McColl replying to your posts is the dabvid McColl we are thinking of, you may wish to retrench a bit before challenging. Just saying.
- David Sands

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posted by Innadiated   Tuesday, January 26, 2010 5:04 PM
"Mr. McColl is an internationally recognized author in the field energy economics and is currently the Research Director with the Canadian Energy Research Institute (CERI), Calgary, Alberta, Canada.

As Research Director with the CERI, Mr. McColl leads a research team of economists and engineers who actively study the international and local implications associated with the development of Canada’s energy systems. He has contributed to publications in North American and European Journals and magazines, in addition to being a guest speaker at international energy conferences and the University of Calgary.

Mr. McColl is a public figure in Canada, appearing in various forms of print media, television and radio programs who seek out his expert and independent analysis on a wide array of issues. Mr. McColl has provided expert consulting services to government, industry, and associations within Canada. In addition to providing these services, he is active member of his community where he provides ongoing volunteer services.

Mr. McColl graduated from the University of Alberta with a Master of Arts degree in Economics, and was also awarded a Bachelor of Arts degree in Economics, with Honours, specializing in Econometrics and a minor in Management Studies, from the University of Waterloo."

If thats him, his argument for a cheap energy future without poverty is pretty weak, and like most conservative think-tanks base their assumptions mostly on historic trends (IE: the rate of innovation) rather than looking at the real situation and making a critical decision based on that.

His argument is founded in many things that are yet unproven. Call me crazy, but there is no way I would throw all my eggs in that basket.

PS: Is it not conservative think-tanks such as this one that claim "they couldn't see this last recession coming?" I think that pretty much shows how they come to the conclusions of future growth.

Challenge? :)
posted by Innadiated   Tuesday, January 26, 2010 7:19 PM
Here's the challenge, thanks for the idea Sands!

In the future (starting now), how do we modify our economy to account for the following things (Everything must be factual in things we can do and produce today, not fairy tales about technologies in the future):
A) Avoid growth that puts direct demand on oil supplies?
B) Still provide the same level of service provided lets say.. in the 1970s. I won't use today, as today its all about cuts cuts cuts. Consider that our population continues to grow, and with current service levels, life expectency is also quite long.
C) Maintain income levels equivalent to the rising prices of consumer goods (we are already failing at this one).
D) Fix the issues in the banking system which end up creating new money out of thin air, in fact how do we solve the whole mapping credit to resource value problem at all?
E) Maintain economic equity for all without the growth which would be removed from A.

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Here we go again...
posted by David McColl   Wednesday, January 27, 2010 5:37 PM
Dear Innadiated,
My apologies for leaving you lingering for so long, but this darn economic system that we live in requires that I work at my day job to pay the bills.

I don`t think I have ever met anyone that thinks that CERI is a conservative think tank. CERI is one of the only think tanks in Canada (to my knowledge) that has no political bias or agenda – when the facts change, they change their opinions. Not many people can make that statement. I will allows the Institutes’ work speak for itself, since I not responding on their behalf.

Market forces will help push technology development and adoption, this include technologies to unlock the massive amount of oil (and hydrocarbons) that exist (part of the in place resource, not the recoverable). Just this week Venezuelan oil reserves were increased by the USGS. This is a result of technological innovation and economic conditions. Alberta is now third on the list of largest resources. For a developing country their oil deposits could be a massive boom and could help their people, I won`t comment on why it isn`t, that should be apparent to anyone.

Improved technology and adoption also means renewable technologies that are already helping shape our energy system. I don`t argue that the future will be cheap, just that it will be relatively more expensive and hopefully more efficient. Canadians will reap the rewards for this, and hopefully become global leaders with an enhanced quality of lie.

We cannot modify our economy overnight. That is a fairy tale, just like the fairy tale about Canada relying solely on Wind or solar for energy. Perhaps with better technology...

A) To avoid growth that puts direct demand on oil supplies: impose a tax that is sufficient to cause a collapse in the economic system. This would be sufficient to reverse growth and oil demand. We will ignore the serious loss of quality of life. But at least the average Canadian can be driven in poverty.
a. Economic growth requires fuel, or energy. Our current economic system, or for that matter way of life, is heavily based upon carbon fuel sources – and has been for over hundreds of thousands of years. In time substitutes will be found, but a transition away from carbon intensive fuels will not happen in our lives. Oil, for example, permeates almost everything – like you said, look around and find something it doesn`t. As such, there is a lot to change. Sometimes regulatory invention can help encourage change, and at other times it will be markets that encourage change by sending pricing signals to consumers.
b. You do realize that if growth doesn`t put demand on oil it will put demand on other energy inputs, be they nuclear, gas, wind, solar, hydro, etc. Each option has its benefits and costs, and not all options are compatible with a given end use. While electricity could help with vehicles, the technology for massive and efficient adoption isn`t ready. But, if envy and economics are out of the picture, then I would love a nice little Tesla Roadster (Tesla, if you are listening I`m willing to burn up some tires for you).
B) I don`t want to experience the same level of services that existed in the 1970`s... I like current technologies and most of our services. The oil sands could provide over 1 trillion dollars in royalty revenues (at a modest price forecast) to the Alberta government in the next 30 to 40 years. That is enough to dramatically change our way of life, and all Canadian benefit. But, as is always the case with any form of development (even evolution) some people (or species in the case of evolution) and nations are left behind.
C) The rising price of goods and services, often measured by the CPI is usually overestimated in Canada and the U.S. Arguably, a person with a wage indexed to inflation is actually better off already. Income, which comes primarily from wages, goes up quickly but doesn`t drop quickly either. I would not want to the person proposing peoples` wages slide up and down with inflation. When wages drop, productivity tends to drop as well. Having government involved in this type of lunacy is not a productive use of my tax dollars. That is central planning at its worst.
D) Canada`s banking system has been very stable during the current economic crisis. The banks are not the only ones to blame. People that took out massive amounts of credit need to take some responsibility. Granted, some may have been mislead and that is a problem but that excuse doesn`t apply to everyone.
E) Economic equality... a hot topic that can mean different things to different people. I`m not going to walk into that extremely ideological debate, even if envy was taken off the table.

You may find a read on Genuine Progress Indicators to be of value. While the concept of the GPI is a good idea it still has some flaws that need to be worked out, just like GDP. The purpose of a GPI is to try and take into account some issues such as income inequality and the environment. Eventually I will find the time to perform a GPI on Alberta and compare it to the GDP, but my time is not infinite.

David

p.s. don`t expect a reply for a while. Lots of work to get done, and lots of bills to pay.

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There we go
posted by Innadiated   Wednesday, January 27, 2010 6:52 PM
This is much more of what i would expect as an argument from someone with your credentials! Its good, this is the sort of things we need to start looking at, and discussing in open society. This issue has been deferred by too many people, and the time is coming to make a decision. decisions start with healthy debate.

However, I believe you are not quite understanding what I am getting at, in fact avoiding the core issue.

Lets begin:

I don`t think I have ever met anyone that thinks that CERI is a conservative think tank. CERI is one of the only think tanks in Canada (to my knowledge) that has no political bias or agenda – when the facts change, they change their opinions. Not many people can make that statement. I will allows the Institutes’ work speak for itself, since I not responding on their behalf.
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So, your saying that being in the field of energy research in canada is in no way politically influenced at all, even though our economy is mostly based on energy, and many influencial stakeholders are involved. Somehow I doubt that if this firm found research pointing to a reduced quality of life in the future, they would be coming out to say it right up front. That wouldn't really fly with economic interests in this country.

So.... you did see the last recession coming? You didn't think to maybe suggest to the Albertan government that oil wouldn't be $200 / barrel this year like they were counting on? Or was there no reason to suspect that the bubbling economy would crash back down? The point i'm trying to make with this, is that no matter what agency, or how experienced in historical economics some agency may be, we are facing something completely new today, which history doesn't really have a precident for. Making predictions based on historical trends can only do so much.



Market forces will help push technology development and adoption, this include technologies to unlock the massive amount of oil (and hydrocarbons) that exist (part of the in place resource, not the recoverable). Just this week Venezuelan oil reserves were increased by the USGS. This is a result of technological innovation and economic conditions. Alberta is now third on the list of largest resources. For a developing country their oil deposits could be a massive boom and could help their people, I won`t comment on why it isn`t, that should be apparent to anyone.
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Yes, but again.. this is not the answer, this is only deffering the issue. For one, it will take them some time to get extraction facilities set up, they will be expensive (as i believe the find you are referring to is as well an oilsand based find). Second, lets say your right. We continue to find more and more unconventional sources of oil which with market costs driven up, are affordable to mine. So we mine these, we produce more junk, mine more, produce, mine, produce, for the next 30 years or so, taking our supplies down considerably.
Now in 30 years, the next generation that has had to start dealing with this issue (because the current one deferred it) finds the solution. The solution, like most solutions to todays problems, take an incredible amount of capital and energy to get started, even if it is a step away from such a system, or an evolution of such a system. BUT due to an increasingly expanding economy, more and more people on the earth, and our love for useless junk thats disposable at an ever increasing rate, the amount of resources left, and the costs of such resources are so high that the solution cannot be implemented.

You seem to think i am against the extraction of oil period, and that i believe we can maintain our lifestyles without it. This is not the case, what my real problem is, is that even though society admits we are now into the "unconventional" oil, we do not treat it as such. We are still allowing banks to make loans as if these resources are there. We are still allowing unchecked economic growth, which everyday is putting us more and more dependant on these fuels. Yes, our quality of life improves, but the hit its going to be to society when this system falls through will be worse. Canada isn't building up any reserve supplies of its own still, we are just selling it off. This is a problem for me, and my generation, and our children.


Improved technology and adoption also means renewable technologies that are already helping shape our energy system. I don`t argue that the future will be cheap, just that it will be relatively more expensive and hopefully more efficient. Canadians will reap the rewards for this, and hopefully become global leaders with an enhanced quality of li[f]e.
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Ok, this whole thing doesn't make sense. On one hand your saying the future will not be cheap, then in the other you are saying we will be global leaders with an enhanced quality of life. How exactly does one lead into the other? Already we cannot afford our quality of life, governments worldwide have had to make cuts to everything Alberta one of the most notable in Canada, yet you claim that because energy is going to rise in price even higher, creating a much more turbulent economic system, that somehow we will be able to afford even more than we can now, for a broader range of people? I'd like to see the math on this one! Sorry, but I don't see how this is possible, overtime we have had more poverty, more homeless, more crime, these numbers are growing, not shrinking. If what you say is true, then during the period of $150 / barrel oil, there should have been no economic hardships at all. What you say sounds good on paper, and i'm sure those remaining with money surely have great lives. But i'm not talking about those who profit from these increases am i? And eventually, even those with the most money, will not be able to escape the increased cost of living without sacrificing something because their whole income and quality of life, sits on the shoulders of those less fortunate than them.



We cannot modify our economy overnight. That is a fairy tale, just like the fairy tale about Canada relying solely on Wind or solar for energy. Perhaps with better technology...
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No, but we can start debating and planning for the future, instead of ignoring it, or hoping it doesn't happen. Or hedging all of our bets on one possiblilty. Telling people there's nothing to worry about and technology to solve these problems is coming does not promote the thought process needed by our society to cope with the coming high energy prices. This is not how you address a problem, its how you hide it.



A) To avoid growth that puts direct demand on oil supplies: impose a tax that is sufficient to cause a collapse in the economic system. This would be sufficient to reverse growth and oil demand. We will ignore the serious loss of quality of life. But at least the average Canadian can be driven in poverty.
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You've stated energy prices won't be cheap anyway, so whats the difference? See, this also doesn't make sense. High prices derived from the market will encourage consumers to live better, but high prices derived from taxes possibly being put into investments in their best interest and in the future is going to put everyone into poverty? This is your argument for us not going into poverty? Good one.



a. Economic growth requires fuel, or energy. Our current economic system, or for that matter way of life, is heavily based upon carbon fuel sources – and has been for over hundreds of thousands of years. In time substitutes will be found, but a transition away from carbon intensive fuels will not happen in our lives. Oil, for example, permeates almost everything – like you said, look around and find something it doesn`t. As such, there is a lot to change. Sometimes regulatory invention can help encourage change, and at other times it will be markets that encourage change by sending pricing signals to consumers.
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We're not talking about any fuel, we're talking oil. The one fuel that our entire society is produced from. This is a completely different situation, because all the technology we produce now, is based on simpler technology produced before. All derived from oil. If we will eventually find a replacement, why haven't we already? See this is that god-fairy stuff i'm talking about. Oils been here for 100 years, we've known its running out at least since the 70s. If we haven't found a replacement now, what makes you so sure we'll find one in the future? I can find no evidence there is anything out there that suppliments every purpose oil is used for. Even alternative power, like wind or solar as you mentioned, these plants are built with oil derived materials, oil derived construction power. This once again comes back to why i'm upset, we are wasting oil like we have the answers to these questions, when in reality we are throwing the very oil away we will most likely need to implement any solution we do find. This governments entire justification for the rate of production in the oilsands is that humanity has basically entered a new era of unconventional oil supplies, yet they do not act like we have entered this era. So which is it? Are the oilsands needed because we have little more conventional oil? Or are they needed because Alberta just wants to make money? Can't have your cake and eat it too.



b. You do realize that if growth doesn`t put demand on oil it will put demand on other energy inputs, be they nuclear, gas, wind, solar, hydro, etc. Each option has its benefits and costs, and not all options are compatible with a given end use. While electricity could help with vehicles, the technology for massive and efficient adoption isn`t ready. But, if envy and economics are out of the picture, then I would love a nice little Tesla Roadster (Tesla, if you are listening I`m willing to burn up some tires for you).
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Obviously, and those energy inputs will probably come from oil derived facilities. Speaking of tires, 7 barrels of oil goes into every single one. Tons goes into the actual car too. electricity is not a power source.



B) I don`t want to experience the same level of services that existed in the 1970`s... I like current technologies and most of our services. The oil sands could provide over 1 trillion dollars in royalty revenues (at a modest price forecast) to the Alberta government in the next 30 to 40 years. That is enough to dramatically change our way of life, and all Canadian benefit. But, as is always the case with any form of development (even evolution) some people (or species in the case of evolution) and nations are left behind.
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I should have worded this one better. I did not mean as in going back in time into the 1970s, with 1970 technology. I mean funding levels, on a per capita basis as equivilent to the 1970s but in todays terms. The funding in health care, education. The 70s is probably one of the richest times in modern history.



C) The rising price of goods and services, often measured by the CPI is usually overestimated in Canada and the U.S. Arguably, a person with a wage indexed to inflation is actually better off already. Income, which comes primarily from wages, goes up quickly but doesn`t drop quickly either. I would not want to the person proposing peoples` wages slide up and down with inflation. When wages drop, productivity tends to drop as well. Having government involved in this type of lunacy is not a productive use of my tax dollars. That is central planning at its worst.
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I see, so when peoples rents doubled and all that, they were just imagining it. All of the increases in food as well, never happened? Not only do wages go up and down, but wages are also lost. there's a whole bunch of $0 / month people out there, when these sorts of things happen. I mean, already consumer prices have started to go up, and we're not even fully "recovering" yet. Its a jobless recovery I read often. Also, how many people do you know with wages indexed to inflation? I mean, people in regular jobs, not jobs like the director of research or anything like that. Wages here in Alberta dropped considerably this last recession, where as prices barely fell at all and they are now on the rise once again.


D) Canada`s banking system has been very stable during the current economic crisis. The banks are not the only ones to blame. People that took out massive amounts of credit need to take some responsibility. Granted, some may have been mislead and that is a problem but that excuse doesn`t apply to everyone.
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Canada's stability can be no more stable than that of our number 1 trading partner down south. If our economy is primarily an export economy, then we are at the mercy of the countries buying our product and the stability of their economies, to continue feeding us revenue that must be an ever growing amount. Californias government is in how much debt again right now? :)


E) Economic equality... a hot topic that can mean different things to different people. I`m not going to walk into that extremely ideological debate, even if envy was taken off the table.
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Lets put this in clear terms then. Not a single person below the poverty line that works a legal job. Or do you concede our society cannot operate without people below the poverty line? "working Poor".



You may find a read on Genuine Progress Indicators to be of value. While the concept of the GPI is a good idea it still has some flaws that need to be worked out, just like GDP. The purpose of a GPI is to try and take into account some issues such as income inequality and the environment. Eventually I will find the time to perform a GPI on Alberta and compare it to the GDP, but my time is not infinite.
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Looking forward to this.




My final conclusion on your stance, is that you really are not concerned with those that would be in poverty. Your logic is that as long as everyone isn't in poverty, and at least someone somewhere is making money, we're ok. This isn't good enough, and being the "modern civilized rich nation" that we are, you would think there shouldn't be anybody that works hard in poverty. Yet there are many, more every day.

You should go out in the real world more often, forget your GPI's and excel sheets. Go out into the world, look at our infrastructure, meet the people who have already fallen through the cracks. Ask them how high energy prices affected their lives. Ask them how they became homeless. Was it drugs? a home forclosure? did they loose their job in one of our many recessions?

Unless you can justify why all of the people out there don't deserve the same quality of life you have, then you cannot say that we as a country are not sinking into poverty. We are. More and more people are, and if what your claiming is true, then we either are not capable of changing our economic system to meet the needs of these people, or we simply don't care to. Obviously it has nothing to do with an economy that requires infinite growth with finite resources though, not at all.

posted by Innadiated   Wednesday, January 27, 2010 11:48 PM

Seriously how many more points do i have to make to prove this problem is real, and is happening right now.
posted by Innadiated   Thursday, January 28, 2010 4:25 AM
http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/19380

And the other guys...
posted by Innadiated   Thursday, January 28, 2010 6:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bHZRSlhJxY&NR=1



So which is it it the 200 people who have read this post? :) Say something! LEts start discussing this, right or wrong.. I don't care which I am, I encourage someone to please find the evidence to say this is not going to be the end result, and not have to go outside the scientific realm of what we can actually do, and what we actually have.

Another better argument for the other guys
posted by Innadiated   Thursday, January 28, 2010 7:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHD4U2q_p4c&NR=1

This one is a bit better, but once again.. peak oil is not the thoery of us running out of oil, but that our production cannot keep up with demand.

And finally...
posted by Innadiated   Friday, January 29, 2010 12:40 AM
If only politics were as black and white as canadas economy depends on them being:
http://money.ca.msn.com/investing/deirdre-mcmurdy/article.aspx?cp-documentid=23350933&page=2

Some exact numbers
posted by Innadiated   Friday, January 29, 2010 1:21 AM
So according to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_jOBURovPM

by 2030 we'll be producing ... 5million barrels / day? This is the supply that will feed the world? us? and the U.S.A.?

How?

An enahnced quality of life
posted by Innadiated   Friday, February 05, 2010 9:42 PM
As of 2007, 22% of our people had a great life apparently:
http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/edmonton/2010/02/04/12745341.html

Were these the ones your referring to?

Do you have any real-world evidence what-so-ever that anything you claim can be proven? Any at all?

When the wells run dry and the Bitumen is no longer there
posted by Groundpounder   Friday, January 29, 2010 1:35 PM
Greetings Steven

I agree with your statement,"The price will be your quality of life."

One nagging question that the industrial world has been asking itself since the discovery of the first oil well is what happens when the wells/Oilsands begin to run dry. The answer is relatively simple to imagine. We had a dry run, so to speak, when Dubai’s economy tanked a few months ago. And although the causes of Dubai’s ills and ails were financial and not oil related, the drama which unfolded gave us a watered-down version of what might transpire if and when the oil wells/Oilsands stop producing.

But before we run the Armageddon tape that the world will stop functioning because of lack of oil, let’s all take a deep breath and think again. The oil companies, the people who manufacture cars and airplanes and legions of scientists and inventors have all been planning for that day. And as far-fetched as it might seem to some of us, that day will undoubtedly come, very probably within our lifetime.

So what is likely to happen? First, the car manufacturers and people who build commercial aircrafts, the two largest consumers of fossil fuels have no doubt plans on what their next generation models will look like and what they will run on. Already some car manufacturers are producing hybrid cars that run partially on electricity. What will transpire will be a massive turn to nuclear energy. It may not be the safest of energies, however nuclear energy remains the cleanest. Or perhaps solar and wind.

So your average American will still be able to drive to the drive-thru bank and restaurant. The above average Chinese will still be able to afford his car and the average European will still be able to enjoy Sunday outings with Grandma sitting in the back seat between the bambinos.

What will change – and drastically so – will be the social-economic face of much of the oil producing countries as well as other nations, where overnight tens of thousands of workers will find themselves suddenly unemployed, broke, and with practically no prospects for any future whatsoever. And herewith lies the danger of a social eruption of near Biblical proportions. Think if you will of the ripple effect that would occur if one of the major oil producers stopped producing.

Take the United Arab Emirates (UAE) one of the major oil-producing states in the Gulf where the local population is outnumbered five-to one. Out of a population of some 4.8 million less than 20 % are nationals of the country; and even among the nationals, a good percentage very probably hail from other neighboring countries, such as Palestine, Lebanon or other countries in the region. The bulk of the population -- a whopping 50 percent -- are from the Indian sub-continent; from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Balouchistan or from Iran and Afghanistan.

The same holds true in the rest of the Gulf Cooperation Council states; Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman.

They are the people who really make the country function on a day-to-day basis. They are the day laborers who have constructed much of this almost fairy tale-like wonderland, thanks to the petro-dollars which kept pouring in over the decades. They are the workers in the oil fields who drilled for this black gold in oven-like temperatures or helped refine it while earning pittances but still being able to sustain an extended family back home.

They are the shopkeepers who know no Sabbath and no rest, the money changers, the taxi drivers, the gardeners who keep hundreds of miles of lush green lawns and vibrant flower beds carefully manicured and watered in the middle of the desert.

They are the people who do the “small jobs” which are of prime importance to the economy of the land but that receive no credit for their contribution.

The outcome of oil running out would have a ripple effect on every segment of the economy. Similar to what happens when you place hundreds of dominos in a complicated pattern and then knock the first one down.

The first to be affected from the dry wells will those poor souls mentioned in these preceding lines. They would no longer have oil fields or refineries to work in. Overnight, thousands will find themselves unemployed, unable to pay their rent. As was the case in Dubai when the economic crunch hit, thousands will abandon their cars at the airport and hop on a flight home, where they will add to the already heavy load of unemployment.

Now here comes the ripple effect. The sudden departure of these workers will force landlords, restaurants and other businesses to make their staff redundant. The “small jobs” will vanish one after another. The taxi drivers will first run out of gas and second run out of customers. The shop owners will find that their fresh fruits and legumes will begin to wither as their clientele fights for seats on the few remaining flights back home.

Eventually, tens of thousands of stranded expatriates, jobless, penniless and at wits ends will begin to riot. That’s when things begin to turn ugly.

The ripple effect of course will be felt back home with thousands returning to little prospect of anything better than what they had left behind years earlier, and in some instances, decades or entire lifetimes ago.

Of course oil not being an issue any longer the once darling children of the West will be quickly forgotten with the industrialized world concentrating on how to keep their cars running and their planes flying. That is until the disturbances begin to affect the West once again.

And so.... the Geologic/Biologic cycle of life will begin again. Man will cease to exist, plants and animals will rule the earth over millions of years, man will evolve once again to extract the non-renewable(?) oil from the bowels of the earth. Hopefully, we don't blow the planet up before we can get the chance to evolve again. Life always finds a way.

GROUNDPOUNDER

Reply to this Comment
posted by Innadiated   Friday, January 29, 2010 1:43 PM
Well said, excellent points.

Reply to this Comment
A great article
posted by Innadiated   Saturday, January 30, 2010 1:38 AM
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

Disturbing revelations.

Reply to this Comment
End of Oil and all the doom and gloom
posted by Groundpounder   Saturday, January 30, 2010 6:43 AM
Thanks for this information Innadiated. I believe we must concentrate all our efforts on Oil replacement technologies, after all it's only Hydrocarbons. We should be able to make a synthetic version.

Groundpounder
“The most successful people are those who are good at Plan B.”

Reply to this Comment
posted by Innadiated   Saturday, January 30, 2010 6:45 AM
i concur.

Reply to this Comment
The most successful people are those who are good at Plan B
posted by Groundpounder   Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:40 AM
Greetings Innadiated
There are technologies being worked on to replace oil, as I'm sure your well aware. It's a small step in the right direction. Rome wasn't built in a day.

http://www.emerging-markets.com/algae/Algae2020StudyandCommercializationOutlook.pdf

There is a company(LS9)that has engineered both yeast and E. coli bacteria to make use of "previously undiscovered metabolic pathways" to convert sugars into hydrocarbon products than can be put straight into your gas tank, or sent off to a refinery for processing.
This company is a trail blazer.
http://www.ls9.com/

Groundpounder
“Innovation distinguishes between a leader and a follower.”

Reply to this Comment
Yawn.
posted by Pension&doubletime   Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:23 PM
Methinks you should perhaps shut your books, get out from behind your desk and get out and see the real world once in a while.

Reply to this Comment
posted by Innadiated   Saturday, January 30, 2010 7:03 PM
http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=23365125

Not a good sign..

Reply to this Comment
Yawn.......
posted by Groundpounder   Tuesday, February 02, 2010 9:43 AM
Greetings Pension&doubletime

Please don't Yawn it's contagious.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/11/magazine/11ideas_section4-18.html

Groundpounder

Reply to this Comment
Join my facebook group!
posted by Innadiated   Saturday, February 13, 2010 7:48 PM
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=276821204421&ref=nf#!/group.php?v=info&ref=nf&gid=276821204421

With oil demand increasing at an unprecedented rate, humanity is on the verge of a complete systematic shutdown of all of its services, and no one knows it.

Ever heard the term peak oil? Some claim it is a myth or that it is simply another "doomsday" prediction. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is the theory that all oil production follows a bell curve, from the production of a single pump to the entire global supply. Once you reach the "peak" or 50% of this curve, the difficulty (which translates to cost in our economy) to recover the second half of the resource is greatly increased. The problem this creates is that our economic growth and our oil consumption go hand in hand, and our economic growth must be infinite.

So big deal right? We have all of that lovely alternative energy that we are trying to implement in an economically profitable way as quickly as possible. Alternative energy and/or electric powered cars, wind turbines, solar energy, who needs oil really? Well, heres where the problem becomes a little more complex.

To understand this complexity, you must understand our economy (for the moment) revolves around oil production, reserves, and consumption. No matter what socialogical problem you look at that ails our modern day society, in the end it will come back down to oil consumption and wealth distribution which is powered by an oil-based market economy.

Now an oil based economy differs from a Gold/Silver based or other finite value based economies. Gold and Silver do not grow, they are finite and they are simply what they are Gold is Gold, Silver is Silver. But oil, basing an economy on oil now introduces an unknown into the economy. How much oil is there? This is a variable that depends largely on cost, location, and type of the oil. New technologies increase the number of "proven oil reserves", pretty cool right? You can see where the whole idea of "growth" based economies started to emerge as practical. Now loans, derivatives, assets and a whole other shwack of paper trading goodness could liven up our markets, loans removed the production capacity limit on growth allowing families to expand on tomorrows dime. Credit Cards started becoming available, fueling further consumption based growth again on tomorrows dime. The best part? To keep growing all one had to do was maintain a "low minimum monthly payment", and they could technically continue putting costs off until the next day. This was all done in good faith that sooner or later we would catch up to our expenses or find a new massive oil deposit such as Saudi Arabia.

Naturally, this new super-growth economy seemed great. We could all have more and more for less and less. Credit was everywhere and a lot of people lived better than any moment in human history for a bit anyway. Credit on top of the normal wage was seen as a bonus, or for "long term payments". This quickly began to change though as our oil credit system evolved and populations soared world-wide. This is largely in part to the United States reaching peak oil production in the 1970s alongside the change to the oil based economy. Household debt began to rise, inflation likewise rose with the increases in debt, lower interest rates, and the new emerging threat of large scale credit defaults.

So you should already be seeing a problem beginning to form here, the problem is if oil production starts to decline, debt must start to be consolidated. The larger the decline the less loans will be available. The more debt that gets conslidated, the more people and companies are likely to go broke, pushing stock markets down, causing even more issues.

The other major piece of the oil-credit economic pie, is housing. The cost of housing is largely affected by the price of oil. This is not simply because of the oil power needed to build a house, or the oil power that goes into their construction materials and transportation, but also because when economies start to heat up or "boom", this is usually accompanied by large increases in oil demand and real estate is driven up to ridiculously high numbers. Being the oil-credit society we are, housing is of course purchased on borrowed money, keeping the virtual economic growth wheel spinning. Now, when booms such as these finally crash, houses will loose large amounts of value, and if the crash is hard enough may even make purposely defaulting on your loan quite appealing. Along with housing crashes, comes large layoffs in construction and other trades, further pushing more defaults. This leaves banks with large amounts of what were once expensive houses sitting as toxic assets in their reports. Being that housing prices are so low, banks can only hope to get rid of these expensive properties at a low cost, which in turn can drive housing even lower, causing more people with huge mortgages to purposely default. Quite the problem.

So enter today, governments worldwide are going broke chasing unknown amounts of toxic assets down the drain. Several states in the U.S. have had their credit ratings lowered, nearing third world status. GDPs being reported are being boosted only by finance and the energy sector while commodities and retail sales tank. These are clear signs not of improvement but of stagnation. You see, we've hit peak everything, which means when it comes to energy the only place for prices to go over the medium term is up until they hit the terminal ceiling which halts our market entirely. Add to this the hidden dangers of China and India catching up to the industrialized world, and I would say that "crisis" is an understatement. You don't need to be worried about whether or not we are about to run our oil reserves dry, you need to be worried about whether we will be able to afford continuing to drill for oil. OPEC trys very hard to keep prices low and stable for this reason, because to do otherwise would completely damage their business. High oil prices easily push many people and businesses out of the realm of high-energy usage causing demand to drop drastically (we have just seen this happen). When this happens, this can not only take out numerous consumer pieces of our growth economy, but also take out some of the oil companies with it too. If the oil companies go broke, whose going to drill for oil? Who will afford to? Oil companies depend on stable prices, if prices go too high or too low too quickly, this can be a danger zone for oil producers.

On top of all the existing problems with our economy, we are now also looking at solving global warming, and using this as both the economic motivator and justification to look at alternative energy. The problem with alternative energy, is that when it comes to any effect it would have on peak oil (or the peak of resources in general), It seems to actually amplify the amounts of fossil fuels required. So solving the GHG problem in one hand, may in the other push us off the oil demand cliff so to speak, now using energy to prevent the problems from using energy. Thats a lot of energy being used just to safely use other energy for our growth economy. The reason for this? Alternative energy is 100% completely derived from oil. We cannot mine the quantity of resources needed to implement alternative energy without the condensed power of oil to do the job to begin with. The resources to construct alternative power likewise come from a transportation network powered by oil. Nuclear reactors require enriched uranium which is an incredibly energy intensive process to accomplish in itself. So you can see another problem emerging here, that the more "advanced" our technology gets, and the further the outcome moves us away from oil, the more we end up actually depending on oil to get the job done in the first place.

The real kicker is governments seem either unable or unwilling to promote the changes needed in society to prevent a complete failure. Alberta is dedicating more and more resources to ramp up production in the oil sands diverting funds from much needed service, hoping that by 2030 we can produce a measly 5million barrels a day of bitumen, with upgraders and refiners scattered all over what was once useful farmland. By 2016 its estimated globally we will be using 100million barrels of oil daily. They estimate at most we have around 43 years of oil reserves remaining in total. So I'll be turning 69 when we run out, I'll have just retired. In reality we are likely to run out much much sooner, due to the economic and political turbulence around oil supplies. High energy prices are a clue humanity has completed this era of its existence, and time is running out to do something about it.

So you see, our economy is quite the fickle chain held together by whats looking more and more to be some sort of economic duct tape. This group exists to inform, help, and unite Canadians to understand this is not a Liberal issue or a Conservative issue. This is an everyone issue. No economy will survive in the fantasy world of infinite growth that we currently live in. The evidence is all around you, budget cuts, increasing prices, ask yourselves how that can be sustained on its own?

You can learn more of the science behind peak oil as well as help plan for the future economy or provide evidence of the peak oil lead economic collapse from your area. Invite your friends, and spread the message. We can't fix it, but we can prepare for it!

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=276821204421&ref=nf#!/group.php?v=info&ref=nf&gid=276821204421

Reply to this Comment
posted by Concerned Canadian   Sunday, February 14, 2010 2:03 AM
David McColl said:
`To avoid growth that puts direct demand on oil supplies: impose a tax that is sufficient to cause a collapse in the economic system. This would be sufficient to reverse growth and oil demand. We will ignore the serious loss of quality of life. But at least the average Canadian can be driven in poverty.

Nope. The average consumer would save about $3000 a year by rejecting fossil fuels as a primary source of energy. This will be achieved by using current technology, and will actually increase individual freedoms or quality of life, and raise many people out of poverty.

``Economic growth requires fuel, or energy. Our current economic system, or for that matter way of life, is heavily based upon carbon fuel sources – and has been for over hundreds of thousands of years.``

Yes. But I disagree with the notion of economic growth. Just because the economists say it is necessary doesn`t mean that it can be supported by the planet.

``In time substitutes will be found, but a transition away from carbon intensive fuels will not happen in our lives.``

Totally untrue. The transition is happening later this year. In 2 months I will be putting down a deposit on a Nissan Leaf electric car. It will cost about $30,000. Its price will be competitive with (likely less expensive than) its gasoline powered competition, when you consider total cost of ownership. Within 5 years, Nissan`s innovations in battery and electric drivetrain technology will be producing cars in the low $20,000`s that have 200 km range, cost $25 a month to charge, take 15 minutes to recharge, hardly depreciate because they have so few moving parts, and cost almost nothing in maintenance to keep on the road, for the same reason.

``Oil, for example, permeates almost everything – like you said, look around and find something it doesn`t. As such, there is a lot to change``

Manufacturing of plastics and the like is the one legitimate use of oil. However, biofuels could take over that role, but I agree that this is best suited for oil, and we should instead dedicate agriculture to feeding the world.

``You do realize that if growth doesn`t put demand on oil it will put demand on other energy inputs, be they nuclear, gas, wind, solar, hydro, etc. Each option has its benefits and costs, and not all options are compatible with a given end use.``

Yes and no. While growth increases demand for energy (all else being equal), this will be more than offset by the increases in efficiency resulting from a shift away from fossil fuels. And this is also is why we should be slowing and eventually halting economic growth. Again, just because economists like to show off charts which show economic growth as a good thing does not mean the planet can support it.

``While electricity could help with vehicles, the technology for massive and efficient adoption isn`t ready.``

It is indeed ready, and it is 5 times more efficient than fossil fuels. Nissan will be transforming the automotive industry within 5 years and pushing every other automaker who doesn`t do likewise out of business. It was actually ready 10 years ago with NiMH batteries but Chevron got control of the patent for those and shut `em down.

And the irony of the whole thing, the bitter aftertaste that people in the know have to swallow, that enrages so many Canadians who can so clearly see our future destroyed by the oil industry, is twofold:

1) Contrary to what the scare tactics would like you to believe, consumers will have to give up neither money nor quality of life by shifting away from fossil fuels. Rather, we would save money and live better lives. We would not need any new electrical generation infrastructure to completely switch over to electric vehicles. Here is an interesting fact: by not refining one gallon of gasoline from the tar sands, we would save enough electricity to power an electric car to go almost as far as the gallon of oil would take a gasoline powered car!!!!! The difference being that it costs 5-10 times less to charge an electric car than fuel a gasoline powered car!!!!! Apparently Nissan is making its battery packs for $300 per kWh RIGHT NOW. That price will come down dramatically within the next 5 years and make owning and operating a typical automobile way cheaper than it is now. And the cars will be better. And our energy consumption for transportation will go down by 4 times!!! (we will not be experiencing economic growth over this transition to compensate for the increased efficiency, because the oil sands will be shut down!!!) There is no shortage of raw material for the batteries, and it is only a matter of 10 years before production could be ramped up to provide the majority of the automobile market in the world with inexpensive electric vehicles. Bye bye tarsands!!

2) In the face of this inevitable transition, should we be developing a fossil fuel based economy? It`s insanity what these guys are pushing on us. What will happen to Canada`s economy when within 10 years every automobile consumer makes the wise choice and buys an electric car? This is the crime that the oil sands industry is imposing on future Canadians (and my future in 10 years). Because society`s continued reliance on fossil fuels as an energy source is not justified financially, and the whole system will begin to come crashing down within 10 years. Then Canada will be one of the have-not nations. All those millions of people we brought in to serve our economic growth based on oil sands development will be unemployed. We should instead develop our economy around sustainable options. But the problem is that the people in power in our country really don`t care about the future 10 years down the road. They are interested in how much profit they can make with in the next 2 years and then they`ll say ``good bye suckers, thanks for the millions, but you`ll have to deal with the aftermath yourselves. ``

All the economic predictions made by other posters above about how rich Canada is going to become as a result of developing its oil sands is complete hogwash, circulated by people who are pushing an agenda and do not understand the underlying technological and energy fundamentals supporting our societies and economies.

Reply to this Comment
posted by Yeti   Sunday, February 14, 2010 5:09 PM
Funny how that peak oil argument quickly turns away from the imaginary peak oil argument and becomes a social engineering argument by some people who really love to dictate to others how to live there lives by taxes and restrictions they envision.
The peak oil story is as old as oil itself for example I got told in the late 70th in school we have no oil left on this planet by 2000 it is unfortunate that if socialists can't convince the adults they turn to brainwash our kids in school with all there fear mongering about peak oil, global warming and over population.
The real complexity is that The misery of the people is there livelihood.

Reply to this Comment
posted by Innadiated   Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:32 PM
yea total crap.. how could i be so blind?
http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/2010/02/15/saudi-energy-adviser-alarmed-about-peak-oil-pushes-for-diversified-economy/
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6169

Damn those Saudi leftist anti-oil oil producers for spreading such lies!!

Reply to this Comment
posted by Innadiated   Wednesday, February 17, 2010 8:41 PM
BTW, peak oil isn't no oil left..

You should really read the posts you respond to.

Reply to this Comment
posted by Innadiated   Wednesday, February 17, 2010 9:12 PM
Concerned Citizen:
While I love your optimism, you are overlooking a few unfortunate facts. But you have the right idea, now lets put it in a realistic light.




David McColl said:
`To avoid growth that puts direct demand on oil supplies: impose a tax that is sufficient to cause a collapse in the economic system. This would be sufficient to reverse growth and oil demand. We will ignore the serious loss of quality of life. But at least the average Canadian can be driven in poverty.

Nope. The average consumer would save about $3000 a year by rejecting fossil fuels as a primary source of energy. This will be achieved by using current technology, and will actually increase individual freedoms or quality of life, and raise many people out of poverty.

===============================

It is not possible to reject fossil fuels, you can move the dependency but in the end ALL of our technology is based on fossil fuels. A quote from http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ :
~~~~
"Are all forms of modern technology actually petroleum products?"

Yes.

It's not just transportation and agriculture that are entirely dependent on abundant, cheap oil. Modern medicine, water distribution, and national defense are each entirely powered by oil and petroleum derived chemicals.

In addition to transportation, food, water, and modern medicine, mass quantities of oil are required for all plastics, all computers and all high-tech devices. Some specific examples may help illustrate the degree to which our technological base is dependent on fossil fuels:

Automobiles:
The construction of an average car consumes the energy equivalent of approximately 20 barrels (840 gallons) of oil. Source Ultimately, the construction of a car will consume an amount of fossil fuels equivalent to twice the car’s final weight. Source

It's also worth nothing that the construction of an average car consumes almost 120,000 gallons of fresh water. Source Fresh water is also rapidly depleting and happens to be absolutely essential to the petroleum refining process as each gallon of gasoline requires almost two gallons of fresh water for refining. Source

Computers:
The construction of the average desktop computer consumes ten times its weight in fossil fuels. Source

Microchips:
The production of one gram of microchips consumes 630 grams of fossil fuels. According to the American Chemical Society, the construction of single 32 megabyte DRAM chip requires 3.5 pounds of fossil fuels in addition to 70.5 pounds of water. Source The Environmental Literacy Council tells us that due to the "purity and sophistication of materials (needed for) a microchip, . . . the energy used in producing nine or ten computers is enough to produce an automobile." Source In his book "The Nine Nations of North America", author Joel Garreau explains in graphic detail just how much energy it takes to fashion a typical microprocessor:
. . . microchips are not made one by one. They are printed in a batch on a silicon wafer, say, four inches in diameter. Each time a layer of stuff is printed on this silicon wafer, the wafer must be treated so the stuff you've laid on will stay there. This process is achieved through the application of monumental quantities of energy. In effect, as each layer of the circuit is laid on, the whole wafer is "baked" at temperatures sometimes high enough to reach the outer limits of technology. Source

The Internet:
Contrary to popular belief, the internet consumes tremendous amounts of energy. Author John Michael Greer explains:
The explosive spread of the internet, finally, was also a product of the era of ultracheap energy. The hardware of the internet, with its worldwide connections, its vast server farms, and its billions of interlinked home and business computers, probably counts as the largest infrastructure project ever created and deployed in a two decade period in history. The sheer amount of energy that's been been invested to create and sustain the internet beggars the imagination. Source

Recent estimates indicate the infrastructure necessary to support the internet consumes 10% of all the electricity produced in the United States. Source The overwhelming majority of this electricity is produced using coal or natural gas, both of which, as explained momentarily, are also near their global production peaks. Source #1 Source #2 Source #3 Source #4 Source #5

Concrete, Asphalt, Highways, and Modern Cities:
It is hard to precisely quantify how much energy is necessary to construct and maintain a modern city. Some of NASA's recent images of cities, however, hint that the volumes of energy invested in modern cities are almost unfathomably prodigious.
~~~~



``Economic growth requires fuel, or energy. Our current economic system, or for that matter way of life, is heavily based upon carbon fuel sources – and has been for over hundreds of thousands of years.``

Yes. But I disagree with the notion of economic growth. Just because the economists say it is necessary doesn`t mean that it can be supported by the planet.

===============

Yup.





``In time substitutes will be found, but a transition away from carbon intensive fuels will not happen in our lives.``

Totally untrue. The transition is happening later this year. In 2 months I will be putting down a deposit on a Nissan Leaf electric car. It will cost about $30,000. Its price will be competitive with (likely less expensive than) its gasoline powered competition, when you consider total cost of ownership. Within 5 years, Nissan`s innovations in battery and electric drivetrain technology will be producing cars in the low $20,000`s that have 200 km range, cost $25 a month to charge, take 15 minutes to recharge, hardly depreciate because they have so few moving parts, and cost almost nothing in maintenance to keep on the road, for the same reason.

===================================

Look above, and also:

~~~~
"What about alternative energy systems like solar panels and wind turbines? Are they also manufactured using petroleum and petroleum derived resources?"

Yes.

When considering the role of oil in the production of modern technology, remember that most alternative systems of energy — including solar panels/solar-nanotechnology, windmills, hydrogen fuel cells, biodiesel production facilities, nuclear power plants, etc. all rely on sophisticated technology and energy-intensive forms of metallurgy.
~~~~





``Oil, for example, permeates almost everything – like you said, look around and find something it doesn`t. As such, there is a lot to change``

Manufacturing of plastics and the like is the one legitimate use of oil. However, biofuels could take over that role, but I agree that this is best suited for oil, and we should instead dedicate agriculture to feeding the world.

=================================

Biofuels present a huge problem economically and environmentally speaking: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/business/energy-resources/Controversy%20mounts%20over%20fallout%20from%20biofuel/2555412/story.html





``You do realize that if growth doesn`t put demand on oil it will put demand on other energy inputs, be they nuclear, gas, wind, solar, hydro, etc. Each option has its benefits and costs, and not all options are compatible with a given end use.``

Yes and no. While growth increases demand for energy (all else being equal), this will be more than offset by the increases in efficiency resulting from a shift away from fossil fuels. And this is also is why we should be slowing and eventually halting economic growth. Again, just because economists like to show off charts which show economic growth as a good thing does not mean the planet can support it.

=======================================

In our current economic reality of debt-credit, economic growth and oil consumption go hand in hand.. further another problem exists known as Jevon's Paradox:

~~~~
Even if we are willing to undertake such an endeavor, the problem will still not be solved due to a phenomenon known as "Jevon's Paradox," whereby increases in energy efficiency are obliterated by corresponding increases in energy consumption.

The US economy is a good example of Jevon's Paradox in action. Since 1970, we have managed to cut in half the amount of oil necessary to generate a dollar of GDP. At the same time, however, our total level of oil consumption has risen by about fifty percent while our level of natural gas and coal consumption have risen by even more. Thus, despite massive increases in the energy efficiency over the last 35 years, we are more dependent on oil than ever. This trend is unlikely to be abated in a market economy, where the whole point is to make as much money (consume as much energy) as possible.
~~~~





``While electricity could help with vehicles, the technology for massive and efficient adoption isn`t ready.``

It is indeed ready, and it is 5 times more efficient than fossil fuels. Nissan will be transforming the automotive industry within 5 years and pushing every other automaker who doesn`t do likewise out of business. It was actually ready 10 years ago with NiMH batteries but Chevron got control of the patent for those and shut `em down.

And the irony of the whole thing, the bitter aftertaste that people in the know have to swallow, that enrages so many Canadians who can so clearly see our future destroyed by the oil industry, is twofold:

1) Contrary to what the scare tactics would like you to believe, consumers will have to give up neither money nor quality of life by shifting away from fossil fuels. Rather, we would save money and live better lives. We would not need any new electrical generation infrastructure to completely switch over to electric vehicles. Here is an interesting fact: by not refining one gallon of gasoline from the tar sands, we would save enough electricity to power an electric car to go almost as far as the gallon of oil would take a gasoline powered car!!!!! The difference being that it costs 5-10 times less to charge an electric car than fuel a gasoline powered car!!!!! Apparently Nissan is making its battery packs for $300 per kWh RIGHT NOW. That price will come down dramatically within the next 5 years and make owning and operating a typical automobile way cheaper than it is now. And the cars will be better. And our energy consumption for transportation will go down by 4 times!!! (we will not be experiencing economic growth over this transition to compensate for the increased efficiency, because the oil sands will be shut down!!!) There is no shortage of raw material for the batteries, and it is only a matter of 10 years before production could be ramped up to provide the majority of the automobile market in the world with inexpensive electric vehicles. Bye bye tarsands!!

2) In the face of this inevitable transition, should we be developing a fossil fuel based economy? It`s insanity what these guys are pushing on us. What will happen to Canada`s economy when within 10 years every automobile consumer makes the wise choice and buys an electric car? This is the crime that the oil sands industry is imposing on future Canadians (and my future in 10 years). Because society`s continued reliance on fossil fuels as an energy source is not justified financially, and the whole system will begin to come crashing down within 10 years. Then Canada will be one of the have-not nations. All those millions of people we brought in to serve our economic growth based on oil sands development will be unemployed. We should instead develop our economy around sustainable options. But the problem is that the people in power in our country really don`t care about the future 10 years down the road. They are interested in how much profit they can make with in the next 2 years and then they`ll say ``good bye suckers, thanks for the millions, but you`ll have to deal with the aftermath yourselves.

=================================

Couple problems:

The ability for enough people to purchase these cars to make the difference you claim would require amounts of loans and risk not seen in a long time. Today people need loans to buy big ticket items, and many people cannot qualify. Unless people can afford to buy these cars, having an economic mix of those who can afford electric and those that need fossil fuels will not work. As well, as noted above the cars themselves are a product of fossil fuels, the amount of fuels needed to replace the world-wide fleet of gas-driven vehicles which is around 800million is pretty steep. To top this off, how do we create green electric powered transport trucks, boats, airplanes and military aircraft? Green powered cranes and other construction machines, not to mention the fossil fuels used to build those.


Electricity isn't a power source. And when it comes to "renewable" energy, the numbers are pretty dismal:

~~~~
"What about green alternatives like solar, wind, wave, and geothermal?"

Few people realize how much energy is concentrated in even a small amount of oil or gas. A barrel of oil contains the energy-equivalent of almost 25,000 hours of human labor. Source A single gallon of gasoline contains the energy-equivalent of 200-to-500 hours of human labor. Source

Most people are stunned to find this out, even after confirming the accuracy of the numbers for themselves, but it makes sense when you think about it a bit: it only takes one ($3) gallon of gasoline to propel a three ton SUV 10 miles in 10 minutes when traveling 60 mph. How long would it take you to push a three ton SUV 10 miles?

While people tend to drastically underestimate the energy density of oil and gas, they drastically overestimate the energy density (and thus scalability) of renewables. Some examples should help illustrate this point:

Example #1: Wind compared to Natural Gas

It would take every single one of California's 13,000 wind turbines operating at 100% capacity (they usually operate at about 30%) all at the same time to generate as much electricity as a a single 555-megawatt natural gas fired power plant. Source

Example #2: Wind compared to Coal

As of 2004, the United States has 6,361 megawatts of installed wind energy. This means that if every wind turbine in the United States was spinning at peak capacity, all at the exact same time, their combined electrical output would equal that of six coal fired power plants. Since, as mentioned previously, wind turbines typically operate at about 30% of their rated capacity, the combined output of every wind turbine in the US is actually equal to less than two coal fired power plants. Source

Example #3: Solar compared to Coal

The numbers for solar are ever poorer. For instance, on page 191 of his 2004 book "The End of Oil: On the Edge of a Perilous New World", author Paul Roberts writes:
. . . if you add up all the solar photovoltaic cells now running worldwide the combined output - about 2,000 megawatts - barely rivals the output of two coal-fired power plants.
Robert's calculation assumes the solar cells are operating at 100% of their rated capacity. In the real world, the average solar cell operates at about 20% of its maximum capacity as the sun is not always shining. This means the combined output of all the solar cells in the world at the end of 2004 was equal to less than 40% of the output of a single coal fired power plant. Source

By 2008, there was just over 5,000 megawatts of solar pv cells installed worldwide. Operating at average efficiency of 20%, the combined output of all the pv cells in the world is now equal to the output of a single coal fired power-planet.

Example #4: Solar and Wind compared to Petroleum

In order to offset a 10% reduction in U.S. petroleum consumption, the amount of installed solar and wind energy would have to be increased by 2,200%. Source

Example #5: Solar compared to Gasoline

The amount of energy distributed by a single gas station in a single day equivalent to the amount of energy that would produced by four Manhattan sized city blocks of solar equipment. (There are over 170,000 gas stations in the U.S. alone.) Source The reason for this differences is because, as explained above, oil is an incredibly dense sources of energy while solar is extremely diffuse

Example # 6: Low starting point for industrial solar

It would take close to 220,000 square kilometers of solar panels to power the global economy via solar power. This may sound like a marginally manageable number until you realize that the total acreage covered by solar panels in the entire world right now is a paltry 10 square kilometers. Source

Example #7: Diminutive contribution of residential solar:

According a recent MSNBC article entitled, "Solar Power City Offers 20 Years of Lessons:"
By industry estimates, up to 20,000 solar electric units and 100,000 heaters have been installed in the United States, diminutive numbers compared to the country’s 70 million single-family houses. Source
This means that even if the number of American households equipped with solar electricity is increased by a factor of 100, less than two million American households will be equipped with solar electric systems. Assuming we are even capable of scaling the use of household solar electric systems by that amount, two questions remain:

#1. What do the other 68 million households do? What about the millions of companies, nations, and industries around the world of which the industrialized world are dependent?

#2. Since oil, not electricity, is our primary transportation fuel (providing the base for over 95% of all transportation fuel) what good wih this do us when it comes to keeping our global network of cars, trucks, airplanes, and boats going?

Example #8: Electric Car Batteries Versus Gasoline Engines

Dr. Walter Youngquist explains:
. . . a gallon of gasoline weighing about 8 pounds has the same energy as one ton of conventional lead-acid storage batteries. Fifteen gallons of gasoline in a car's tank are the energy equal of 15 tons [3,000 pounds] of storage batteries. Source
Some will say that the problems associated with lead-acid batteries as pointed out by Dr. Youngquist can be resolved by moving to lithium-ion batteries. Unfortunatley, lithium is in such short supply globally that electric car manufacturers are already anticipating problems sourcing it even though only a tiny fraction of westerners currently drive electric cars:
Europe is light-years ahead of America in wind energy, and Germany leads the world. The German numbers are painting a dismal picture for wind’s capacity. E.ON Netz – one of th eworld’s largest private energy providers – owns over 40% of Germany’s wind generating capacity. They released a report titled "WIND REPORT 2004" stating that wind energy require "shadow stations" of traditional energy on back-up reserve in case the wind forecast is wrong. They state that reserve capacity needs to be 60% to 80% of the total win capacity! So as mo wind comes on line, it is all but certain that more hydrocarbon reserve capacity will be required, further demonstrating how renewable energy is used to supplement over-consumption. Source
Figure 2 illustrates the different projections of uranium depletion, pending an increase in annual consumption rates of 3%, 5% or 8%. Currently, uranium production falls incredibly short of the demand. As oil resources become scarce, uranium will have more pressure put upon it as a resource. All three different scenarios have a similar course until around 2013, where they part trails. By 2020, there is a serious uranium shortage.
Let's assume a Pollyanna position and assume that uranium deposits can be doubled up in the coming decade. Figure 3 illustrates the 3 different scenarios, depending on the net increase in consumption per year. Rather than 2013 being a focal year, it is stretched out by 3 years to 2016.
Uranium supply issues aside, nuclear energy (like solar and wind) is not an economically or energetically feasible transportation fuel. Put simply, you can't power your car with a nuclear reactor in the trunk.

Even if these problems are assumed away, a large scale switch over to nuclear power is still not going to do all that much to solve our problems due to the cost and time frames involved in the construction of nuclear power plants. It would take 10,000 of the largest nuclear power plants to produce the energy we get from fossil fuels. Source At $3-5 billion per plant, it's not long before we're talking about "real money" - especially since the $3-5 billion doesn't even include the cost of decommissioning old reactors, converting the nuclear generated energy into a fuel source appropriate for cars, boats, trucks, airplanes, and the not-so-minor problem of handling nuclear waste.

Speaking of nuclear waste, it is a question nobody has quite answered yet. This is especially the case in countries such as China and Russia, where safety protocols are unlikely to be strictly adhered to if the surrounding economy is in the midst of a desperate energy shortage. It may also be true in the case of the US because, as James Kunstler points out in his recent book, The Long Emergency:
. . . reactors may be beyond the organizational means of the society we are apt to become in the future, mainly one with much weaker central authority, less police power, and reduced financial resources . . . in the absence of that (cheap) oil we can't assume the complex social organization needed to run nuclear energy safely will even exist. Source
Assuming we find answers to all questions regarding the cost and safety of nuclear power, we are still left with the most vexing question of all:
Where are we going to get the massive amounts of oil and money necessary to build hundreds, if not thousands, of these reactors, especially since they take 10 or so years to build and we won't get motivated to build them until after oil supplies have reached a point of permanent scarcity?

Abiotic oil propaganda, coupled with finger-pointing at the oil industry, is a perfect ruse to ensure people don’t start powering down. Peak Oil is not the oil industry’s propaganda. Abiotic oil is the oil industry’s propaganda. Source
Interestingly enough, five of the seven policy recommendations made by outspoken abiotic oil advocate Jerome Corsi in his book "Black Gold Stranglehold" sound like taxpayer funded giveaways to Big Oil: (commentary in italics added)

#1. Promote scientific research to investigate alternative theories.

#2. Expedite leases offshore and in Alaska to encourage oil exploration. (Who benefits from this?)

#3. Provide tax credits for deep-drilling oil exploration. (Who benefits from this?)

#4. Create an oil research institute to serve as a clearinghouse of oil industry information. (Who benefits from this?)

#5. Develop a public broadcasting television series devoted to the oil industry. (Who benefits from this?)

#6. Reestablish a gold-backed international trade dollar.

#7. Establish tax incentives for opening new refineries in the U.S. (Who benefits from this?)


With the exception of numbers one & six, Corsi's policy recommendations read as though they came from an oil-industry wishlist. That Corsi would so vigorously advocate tax breaks for the oil industry should come as little surprise: in 2004, he coauthored the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" attack book that many believe helped the tax cut-obsessed and oil industry-backed Bush administration stay in office.

It is worth noting that Corsi - the primary media vector for the current incarnation of the abiotic oil theory - spent the bulk of his early professional career running covert operations for USAID, the U.S. government agency tasked primarily with destabilizing foreign governments not amenable to western oil interests. Source In 2005, he was personally thanked by George W. Bush for his recent work attempting to destabilize oil-rich Iran. Source

In his book, Corsi cites the Eugene Island 330 oilfield as proof that oil fields refill themselves. Apparently he or his research staff failed to do a google images search for "Eugene Island 330." If he had performed such a search, he would have come across the following graph which plainly shows Eugene Island 330's oil production in decline for the past 25 years. Corsi's primary example of a "refilling field" is only producing about 1/6 the amount of oil it produced at its peak:

Example #9: Energy Intermittency, Lack of Battery Technologies

Unlike an oil pump, which can pump all day and all night under most weather conditions, or coal fired/natural gas fired power plants which can also operate 24/7, wind turbines and solar cells only produce energy at certain times or under certain conditions. This may not be that big of a deal if you simply want to power your discretionary household appliances or a small scale, decentralized economy. If, however, you want to run an industrial economy that relies on airports, airplanes, 18-wheel trucks, millions of miles of highways, huge skyscrapers, 24/7 availability of fuel, etc., an intermittent source of energy will not suffice.

While promising work is being done to counteract the intermittency of wind and solar energy, most of this work is still in the developmental stage and won't be ready or cost effective on a large scale for several decades at the earliest. Source

Example #11: Lack of Energy Density

As explained a few times in the preceeding paragraphs, oil is simply unmatched in its energy density. A good way to illustrate its density is to analyze what it would take in terms of solar pv panels to generate the enegy necessary to run a typical automobile. Physicist Les Jackson explains that once you account for the typical solar PV efficiency rating of 20%, you would need a solar panel set up measuring almost 100 feet on each side in order to power your car:
It wasn't the sound of his car engine that was distracting Ian Clifford. The chief executive of Canadian business Zenn Motors makes electric vehicles that give off no noise. He was worried that the obvious choice to power his next car - the same stuff that goes into laptops and cellphone batteries - was going to be in short supply. "If you look at the increase in lithium prices over the past seven to 10 years, it's been dramatic," says Clifford. Zenn's short-range urban cars traditionally used nickel metal hydride batteries, but his next vehicle - an 80mph model with a 250-mile range - needed more efficiency. "There are very limited global reserves, and they're in potentially very unstable parts of the world," adds Clifford. Source

The sun delivers approximately 1,000 watts of total energy per square meter (roughly 100 watts per square foot) on the earth, and that's really only when there's direct light, at noon, on a clear day. If you could convert all that solar energy to electric power you'd need 7.43 square feet for each horsepower (there are 743 watts in a horsepower) in your motor. You need at least 50 horsepower (37,000 watts) to safely move a car in real-world traffic, so you'd need at least 371 square feet of surface area to generate the electricity. That's a square about 19 feet on a side, so your car would have to be very large or have a huge solar sail on it to capture the light.

It gets worse, because solar photovoltaic panels waste most of the sun's energy. The best solar panels on the market today are less than 20% efficient at conversion of energy, so you really need panels 5 times larger than the one in the example above to create enough electricity to run the car. Remember also that we're talking about "perfect" conversion of energy at midday when it's clear outside. As the daylight goes down so does the amount of electricity. If this isn't difficult enough, how do you compensate for those periods when the car is driving in the rain, cloudy weather, through tunnels and at night? What we've got here is a fundamental problem of capacity: There's simply not enough surface area on a car to generate sufficient power from photovoltaic cells.

Add to these pressures the fact that photovoltaic cells cost at least $6 per watt of output, making these things prohibitive for most people even if size weren't a consideration. Source

Are there ways around some of these limitations? Yes, if you have a tremendous amout of money at your disposal. Some people, for instance, are already experimenting with "plug-in hybrids" which they charge using solar panels on their homes. The problem is that a typical solar-pv set up designed to deliver all of a home's power in sunny California will run $50,000. The plug-in hybrid car will run another $50,000. If you want to charge the plug-in hybrid using solar panels in addition to powering your home, you will need to double or triple the pv capacity on your roof. Even in a place with a lot of sunshine, you're looking at a set-up costing $150,000-$200,000 by the time it's all said and done. Under the rapidly declining economic conditions of 2008-20099only a tiny fraction of people can currently afford such a set-up. As the housing economy continues to crumble and gas prices continue to be unpredictably volatile, the already small percentage of people who can afford this sort of capital outlay will only dwindle. Worst still, the price(s) of such a set-up are unlikely to fall due to "economies of scale" because the panels and batteries require prodigious volumes of rare metals (such as lithium and copper), the supplies of which are already falling short of demand. Source

Without a cost-effective and scalable storage (battery) technology to provide power when the wind is not blowing or the sun is not shining, large scale solar/wind farms must be backed up by things like oil pumps or natural gas/coal fired powered plants. For this reason, the expansion of renewables like wind power actually requires an expansion in the use of fossil fuels. Journalist Michael Kane explains:
Europe is light-years ahead of America in wind energy, and Germany leads the world. The German numbers are painting a dismal picture for wind’s capacity. E.ON Netz – one of th eworld’s largest private energy providers – owns over 40% of Germany’s wind generating capacity. They released a report titled "WIND REPORT 2004" stating that wind energy require "shadow stations" of traditional energy on back-up reserve in case the wind forecast is wrong. They state that reserve capacity needs to be 60% to 80% of the total win capacity! So as mo wind comes on line, it is all but certain that more hydrocarbon reserve capacity will be required, further demonstrating how renewable energy is used to supplement over-consumption. Source

Here is the real kicker: due to their prodigious size, these shadow stations cannot just be turned on and off at will. In order to be ready to produce electricity when the wind is not blowing or the sun is not shining, they must be fed a constant supply of natural gas or coal.

In other words, as counter-intuitive as it may sound at first, installing renewable energy at the industrial or utility level does not mean conventional power sources can simply be shut down or turned off. If anything, more coal fired or natural gas fired power plants have to brought on line to prevent blackouts from occurring when the wind is not blowing or the sun not shining.

Inappropriateness as Transportation Fuels:

Approximately 2/3 of our oil supply is used for transportation. Over ninety percent of our transportation fuel comes from petroleum fuels (gasoline, diesel, jet-fuel). Thus, even if you ignore the challenges catalogued above, there is still the problem of how to use the electricity generated by the solar cells or wind turbines to run fleets of food delivery trucks, oceanliners, airplanes, etc.

Unfortunately, solar and wind cannot be used as industrial-scale transportation fuels unless they are used to crack hydrogen from water via electrolysis. Hydrogen produced via electrolysis is great for small scale, village level, and/or experimental projects. In order to power a significant portion of the global industrial economy on it, however we would need the following:

Need #1: Hundreds of trillions of dollars to construct fleets of hydrogen powered cars, trucks, boats, and airplanes.

Need #2: Hundreds, if not thousands, of oil-powered factories to accomplish number one.

Need #3: The construction of a ridiculously expensive global refueling and maintenance network for number one.

Need #4: Mind-boggingly huge amounts of platinum, silver, and copper, and other raw materials that have already entered permanent states of scarcity.
~~~~



``

All the economic predictions made by other posters above about how rich Canada is going to become as a result of developing its oil sands is complete hogwash, circulated by people who are pushing an agenda and do not understand the underlying technological and energy fundamentals supporting our societies and economies.

===============================

Yup, but the solution to this problem is not as easy as you believe. Truth is our economy is simply unsustainable, if you observe how far society is sinking in debt, relative to the cost of oil, its pretty hard to deny that peak oil which will spike cost is not going to have a negative effect in everyone's lives. If you think somehow cause you have money you will avoid this problem, think again. Our fiat oil based currency will become worthless:

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"Is the financial system entirely dependent on ever-increasing amounts of cheap oil?"

Yes.

The relationship between the supply of oil and natural gas and the workings of the global financial system is arguably the key issue to dealing with Peak Oil as robost and smoothly function global capital markets must exist in order to power an orderly (or semi-orderly) transition process. In fact this relationship is far more important than alternative sources of energy, energy conservation, or the development of new energy technologies, all of which are discussed in detail on page two of this site. In short, the global financial system is entirely dependent on a constantly increasing supply of oil and natural gas.

To illustrate, if home and business loans are issued with interest rates in the 7% range, the assumption underlying the loans is that the monetary supply will increase (on average) by 7% per year. But if that 7% yearly increase in the monetary supply is not matched by a 7% yearly increase in the amount of economic activity (goods and services), the result is hyper-inflation. The key is this: in order for there to be an increase in the amount of economic activity taking place, there must be an increase in the amount of net-energy (i.e. the net-number of BTUs) available to fuel those activities. As no alternative source or combination of sources comes even remotely close to the energy density of oil (125,000 BTUs per gallon, the equivalent of 150-500 hours of human labor), a decline or even plateau in the supply of oil carries such overwhelming consequences for the financial system. Dr. Colin Campbell presents an understandable model of this comple relationship as follows:

It is becoming evident that the financial community begins to accept the reality of Peak Oil. They accept that banks created capital during this epoch by lending more than they had on deposit, being confident that tomorrow’s expansion, fuelled by cheap oil-based energy, was adequate collateral for today’s debt. The decline of oil, the principal driver of economic growth, undermines the validity of that collateral which in turn erodes the valuation of most entities quoted on Stock Exchanges. Source
~~~~

Reply to this Comment
And to top it off
posted by Innadiated   Thursday, February 18, 2010 12:59 AM
heres the Wall Street Journal admitting peak oil. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704140104575057260398292350.html?mod=wsj_share_facebook

So whose next? Anyone? If your going to comment against it, bring some proof with you.. this opinion war is getting old, I've put up countless links, facts, hard evidence.

Wheres the other side with their evidence? Wheres David McColl?

Reply to this Comment
And the social factor
posted by Innadiated   Friday, February 19, 2010 12:19 AM

Reply to this Comment
posted by Concerned Canadian   Friday, February 19, 2010 11:05 PM
Wow you are all over the place, a little incoherent but I’ll take a stab at it. I’m not sure what your overall argument is except that everything is hopeless, and that no amount of technology is going to help. While I agree with you that our whole economic and energy system is fundamentally flawed and unsustainable, I disagree with your assertion that current technology, when optimized for mass adoption, will not enable the average person to utilize energy sustainably, and separate themselves from the energy establishment, should they wish to.

I think you are low-balling a lot of numbers and ignoring the rapid growth in alternative energy technologies, in terms of both affordability and efficiency. Essentially, you are playing the devils’ advocate and not analyzing things fairly.

I guess I’ll start off buy going through some of your arguments.

“It's not just transportation and agriculture that are entirely dependent on abundant, cheap oil. Modern medicine, water distribution, and national defense are each entirely powered by oil and petroleum derived chemicals. In addition to transportation, food, water, and modern medicine, mass quantities of oil are required for all plastics, all computers and all high-tech devices. Some specific examples may help illustrate the degree to which our technological base is dependent on fossil fuels:
Automobiles:
The construction of an average car consumes the energy equivalent of approximately 20 barrels (840 gallons) of oil. Source Ultimately, the construction of a car will consume an amount of fossil fuels equivalent to twice the car’s final weight.”
__________________________________________________

You seem to be downplaying the significance of using cars that consume no gasoline. Over a lifetime a typical car burns WAY more than 840 gallons of oil. The fossil fuel consumption of electric cars over their whole lifetime is WAY less than a regular car, even when you consider manufacturing and electricity production. That is a fact. While it is certainly true that manufacturing cars uses lots of energy and fossil fuel raw materials, I don’t understand what alternatives you are proposing. People will be buying cars whether you want them to or not, and electric cars represent a huge improvement over conventional cars, and at the same time impose no real sacrifice in quality of life to the motorist.

“Biofuels present a huge problem economically and environmentally speaking:”


I agree with the environmental part, but biofuels have been demonstrated to be economically feasible by Brazil. I was suggesting that it is POSSIBLE, but not a good idea, to use biofuels to replace fossil fuels in the manufacture of plastics and other such products.

“In our current economic reality of debt-credit, economic growth and oil consumption go hand in hand.. further another problem exists known as Jevon's Paradox:
Even if we are willing to undertake such an endeavor, the problem will still not be solved due to a phenomenon known as "Jevon's Paradox," whereby increases in energy efficiency are obliterated by corresponding increases in energy consumption.
The US economy is a good example of Jevon's Paradox in action. Since 1970, we have managed to cut in half the amount of oil necessary to generate a dollar of GDP. At the same time, however, our total level of oil consumption has risen by about fifty percent while our level of natural gas and coal consumption have risen by even more. Thus, despite massive increases in the energy efficiency over the last 35 years, we are more dependent on oil than ever. This trend is unlikely to be abated in a market economy, where the whole point is to make as much money (consume as much energy) as possible.”


Jevon’s paradox applies to markets with elastic demand curves, whereas driving is more inelastic (the amount of time people spend in their cars is determined more by their commute and how unpleasant the freeways are, and less by the price of gas). The problem with your US economy example is that the US hasn’t shifted away from oil since 1970. So of course, even if efficiency doubles, increasing demand from growth is going to negate that.

With electric cars the whole situation changes, because it is a fundamentally different, “disruptive” technology. Electricity is anywhere from 5 to 10 times cheaper than gasoline and when the technology comes to market which enables consumers to access that energy for driving, then they will naturally flock to it.

The other issue with gasoline consumption and efficiency is that the performance of a gasoline powered car is directly (and inversely) related to its mileage, simply because larger cylinders suck more gasoline even when they aren’t being used to their full potential.

This is not at all the case with electric cars. Energy efficiency has nothing to do with performance. Rather, performance is related to the size of the battery pack and the motor. And a larger motor will if anything have better energy efficiency than a smaller one. In other words, the high performance Tesla Roadster will have just as much energy efficiency as a lesser performing wimpy electric car. The same cannot be said for performance with gasoline powered cars. So it can be expected that with a switch to electric cars, Jevon’s paradox will not occur to any large degree.

“The ability for enough people to purchase these cars to make the difference you claim would require amounts of loans and risk not seen in a long time. Today people need loans to buy big ticket items, and many people cannot qualify. Unless people can afford to buy these cars, having an economic mix of those who can afford electric and those that need fossil fuels will not work.”
____________________________________________________

I’m not sure what your point is here. I am suggesting that if a person has decided to buy a new car, then soon electric cars will be a viable alternative that offer consumers both lower costs and much lower carbon emissions. Whether that person needs a loan to buy the car is irrelevant and has nothing to do with whether they will decide to buy an EV or ICE car.

“To top this off, how do we create green electric powered transport trucks, boats, airplanes and military aircraft? Green powered cranes and other construction machines, not to mention the fossil fuels used to build those.”
Yes, those are more challenging applications, but let’s start with the low hanging fruit first, shall we? That fruit is the commuter car which currently unnecessarily relies on gasoline when electricity is a much better option. Many of those more challenging applications you mention could use hydrogen fuel cells, which I am the first to admit, present major problems, but they are still better than diesel.

Anyways, once battery EV’s have been out for a while, the rapidly advancing battery technology may reach a point where it could solve some of those issues you raise above.

“Some will say that the problems associated with lead-acid batteries as pointed out by Dr. Youngquist can be resolved by moving to lithium-ion batteries. Unfortunatley, lithium is in such short supply globally that electric car manufacturers are already anticipating problems sourcing it even though only a tiny fraction of westerners currently drive electric cars:”

This is an urban myth, there is more than enough lithium and other metals to supply us all with EV’s, the issue is how quickly production can be ramped up.

“It would take close to 220,000 square kilometers of solar panels to power the global economy via solar power. This may sound like a marginally manageable number until you realize that the total acreage covered by solar panels in the entire world right now is a paltry 10 square kilometers.”
That’s a tremendous opportunity for growth, don’t you agree? And that’s what’s happening!! The PV industry is doubling every year! 220,000 sounds like a lot until you realize that it is only a square 500 km on each side ……. TO POWER THE WHOLE WORLD!!!!

“As explained a few times in the preceeding paragraphs, oil is simply unmatched in its energy density. A good way to illustrate its density is to analyze what it would take in terms of solar pv panels to generate the enegy necessary to run a typical automobile. Physicist Les Jackson explains that once you account for the typical solar PV efficiency rating of 20%, you would need a solar panel set up measuring almost 100 feet on each side in order to power your car”
This is highly misleading, I’d say even maliciously misleading. I guess you haven’t researched much about the solar car challenges. And it assumes you will be driving your car all day. That is not true. If you have solar panels on your car you will likely be parking it in the sunshine all day. This will accumulate energy over many hours. That energy, if you covered the panelling of your car with typical solar panels, would power your EV to go about 15 km per sunny day. With expected future improvements in PV technology, that would double. That is not an insignificant number! That would cover half the commute of many people. And cost-wise, it is competitive with gasoline, but not grid electricity which is 5 times cheaper. This is why it will be a little while before EV’s become covered with PV panels, but it will happen maybe sooner than you think.

“Are there ways around some of these limitations? Yes, if you have a tremendous amout of money at your disposal. Some people, for instance, are already experimenting with "plug-in hybrids" which they charge using solar panels on their homes. The problem is that a typical solar-pv set up designed to deliver all of a home's power in sunny California will run $50,000. The plug-in hybrid car will run another $50,000. If you want to charge the plug-in hybrid using solar panels in addition to powering your home, you will need to double or triple the pv capacity on your roof. Even in a place with a lot of sunshine, you're looking at a set-up costing $150,000-$200,000 by the time it's all said and done.”
This just isn’t true, it’s wildly exaggerated. Firstly, the Nissan Leaf will cost $30,000, not $50,000, that is dated information. Plus, the plugin car costs about $25 a month to charge. Plus, it barely requires any maintenance and depreciates slowly. In California it costs $30,000 to put a PV installation on your roof (http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-pricing.aspx). With Obama’s stimulus spending, they will pay for half of it. Then it becomes profitable for the homeowner to do this (the electricity is sold at fair rates). So costs need to come down by 50% for it to be profitable on its own feet. Doesn’t seem like a tall order to me! What happens is that you generate electricity in the daytime and sell excess that you don’t use to the grid (when demand is greatest, conveniently), and then buy it back at night when you need it. And if done on a regional scale like all of the US west, then the intermittency of solar generation is predictable and fairly easily managed. The idea that we are going to have to build MORE electrical generation plants to support solar panels is simply absurd. At worst, all we’ll do is turn them off in the day, ready to go, and then fire them up at night. Right there, fossil fuel emissions would be dramatically reduced.

And it has been demonstrated that if wind and solar installations are connected to a continent wide grid, market penetration can reach over 30%, which is significant. What happens when a central nuclear power plant goes down? You have the same issue don’t you?

Reply to this Comment
Lots of claims...
posted by Innadiated   Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:16 AM
You cite no sources though so far as I am concerned this is all made up... As well, it is plainly obvious you have not actually read this entire post, nor any of the links or facts as almost 90% of your argument has been countered already. So I'm going to ask you a series of questions, if you can answer them without contradicting yourself, I *might* believe the things you state here are credible. Please answer ALL OF MY QUESTIONS, in detail.


Wow you are all over the place, a little incoherent but I’ll take a stab at it. I’m not sure what your overall argument is except that everything is hopeless, and that no amount of technology is going to help. While I agree with you that our whole economic and energy system is fundamentally flawed and unsustainable, I disagree with your assertion that current technology, when optimized for mass adoption, will not enable the average person to utilize energy sustainably, and separate themselves from the energy establishment, should they wish to.

=======================================================

A) "when optimized for mass adoption", when will this be and what exactly does it take for "mass adoption"?
B) How are they going to become sustainable, separate themselves from the energy establishment, and remain in an economy? Or are you saying they wouldn't be in the economy?
C) If they were not in the economy, how would they provide for themselves?
D) If they are in the economy, how are their lives not affected by peak oil and an increased cost of living from having to buy consumer products at ever inflated rates that comes from the base cost of the energy required to produce in the first place? Lets assume the person we are referring to doesn't even have a drivers license, and gets by bussing.
E) Is this adaptation not going to take a ton of oil in itself?
F) What would an "adaptation" consist of? Please explain step by step, and I will tell you why oil is needed for every one.
G) Is this not going to take a lot more in terms of loans & risk? People must be able to afford the change in the first place, we are already in a credit crisis and for your "plan" to be even somewhat effective, EVERYONE would have to be able to afford to get a new car.
H) Other than their car, how else would people "separate from the energy establishment"? Would they still have phones? The Internet? Power? How about a wide-range of imported foods like we currently have? Water? Public service like Police, Fire, and Ambulances? What about our Military? Heating?
I) How do we ensure EVERYONE switches to these non-oil, oil based machines? (If such a thing could exist)
J) How are we going to keep car companies profitable without having to buy new cars every few years which is a huge resource waste?
K) What do we do with the 800million Petro powered cars, boats, airplanes, and military vehicles?




I think you are low-balling a lot of numbers and ignoring the rapid growth in alternative energy technologies, in terms of both affordability and efficiency. Essentially, you are playing the devils’ advocate and not analyzing things fairly.

==========================================================

Actually, I was citing those numbers, *I* was not low balling anything.



I guess I’ll start off buy going through some of your arguments.

“It's not just transportation and agriculture that are entirely dependent on abundant, cheap oil. Modern medicine, water distribution, and national defense are each entirely powered by oil and petroleum derived chemicals. In addition to transportation, food, water, and modern medicine, mass quantities of oil are required for all plastics, all computers and all high-tech devices. Some specific examples may help illustrate the degree to which our technological base is dependent on fossil fuels:
Automobiles:
The construction of an average car consumes the energy equivalent of approximately 20 barrels (840 gallons) of oil. Source Ultimately, the construction of a car will consume an amount of fossil fuels equivalent to twice the car’s final weight.”
__________________________________________________

You seem to be downplaying the significance of using cars that consume no gasoline. Over a lifetime a typical car burns WAY more than 840 gallons of oil. The fossil fuel consumption of electric cars over their whole lifetime is WAY less than a regular car, even when you consider manufacturing and electricity production. That is a fact. While it is certainly true that manufacturing cars uses lots of energy and fossil fuel raw materials, I don’t understand what alternatives you are proposing. People will be buying cars whether you want them to or not, and electric cars represent a huge improvement over conventional cars, and at the same time impose no real sacrifice in quality of life to the motorist.

================================================

A) Ok, so there are roughly 800million cars on the road today. Do you think we have enough oil at an affordable cost to replace every single one?
B) Enough oil to adapt our transportation infrastructure to support whatever technology runs our new cars?
Replace every gas station? You seem to be downplaying how little importance it is that you can get to work, while industrialized society cannot deliver on supply and demand. Why? Because like I said above, Airplanes, Ships, Tanks, Military, Semi-Trucks.... These are all going to run on your biofuel fantasy? In a world of increasingly unstable energy supplies?

I am not proposing an alternative to personal transport, the maintenance of the personal transport network is in itself not maintainable even today. We have many bridges that need repair, roads.. This all takes oil too, heavy equipment, hell asphalt is oil. Personal transport is about to die, just like it began to die when oil hit $147. Speaking of which, are you unfamiliar with this period in time? It wasn't that long ago.. and I've mentioned it several times within this post... TENT CITY, EXPENSIVE GAS, LOTS OF SMALL BUSINESS WENT BROKE, AND HUGE INCREASE IN CANADIAN DEBT LOAD!!!!




“Biofuels present a huge problem economically and environmentally speaking:”

I agree with the environmental part, but biofuels have been demonstrated to be economically feasible by Brazil. I was suggesting that it is POSSIBLE, but not a good idea, to use biofuels to replace fossil fuels in the manufacture of plastics and other such products.

=================================================

Guess you haven't heard:
A) Biofuels require petrochemicals to grow in quantities large enough to fuel personal transport.
B) All land used for biofuels cannot be used for food.. are you saying we have no need to eat? With an ever growing oil-bloated population?
C) If we were going to go with biofuels, well that would mean we would need to continue importing our food, no oil used there?
D) How would we distribute biofuels?
E) What would manage the market that dictates their cost?
F) How would we harvest them without the power of oil?




“In our current economic reality of debt-credit, economic growth and oil consumption go hand in hand.. further another problem exists known as Jevon's Paradox:
Even if we are willing to undertake such an endeavor, the problem will still not be solved due to a phenomenon known as "Jevon's Paradox," whereby increases in energy efficiency are obliterated by corresponding increases in energy consumption.
The US economy is a good example of Jevon's Paradox in action. Since 1970, we have managed to cut in half the amount of oil necessary to generate a dollar of GDP. At the same time, however, our total level of oil consumption has risen by about fifty percent while our level of natural gas and coal consumption have risen by even more. Thus, despite massive increases in the energy efficiency over the last 35 years, we are more dependent on oil than ever. This trend is unlikely to be abated in a market economy, where the whole point is to make as much money (consume as much energy) as possible.”


Jevon’s paradox applies to markets with elastic demand curves, whereas driving is more inelastic (the amount of time people spend in their cars is determined more by their commute and how unpleasant the freeways are, and less by the price of gas). The problem with your US economy example is that the US hasn’t shifted away from oil since 1970. So of course, even if efficiency doubles, increasing demand from growth is going to negate that.

========================================================

You talk about "shifting away from oil" like there is technology available which is not derived from oil. You also once again ignore every application of oil EXCEPT gas. You ignore the fact economies in todays world cannot grow without oil-based production. You ignore global supply and demand lanes. You ignore the extraction of resources and energy inputs needed to build everything, including your savior the Nissan Leaf which we need to build 800million of to replace the global fleet of gasoline powered personal transport. You ignore global politics, and you ignore inflation and peak oil derived hyperinflation.
A) Given that todays market exists entirely because of oil, how can you say the demand curve is not elastic?
B) How will a computer generated, high powered market run without oil in the first place?
C) The example actually wasn't mine, once again.. THESE ARE SOURCES I AM CITING. More proof you don't actually read what you are responding to. If you look, the first sentence of my post says where I am getting my information from. Where are you getting yours from?
D) So how would the U.S. move away from oil, being that every single thing they use is based on oil? Every car they drive has 3x its bodyweight in oil used in construction?



With electric cars the whole situation changes, because it is a fundamentally different, “disruptive” technology. Electricity is anywhere from 5 to 10 times cheaper than gasoline and when the technology comes to market which enables consumers to access that energy for driving, then they will naturally flock to it.
=========================================================
A) Cheaper? Do you mean from an Oil Plant? Or a Gas Plant? Surely you don't expect to run your hybrid Leaf off Solar or Wind?
B) Could you be talking Nuclear? Well no, because a single nuclear plant takes upwards of 16 years to build and once again theres that whole enriching uranium annoyance which uses oil.
C) Once again the market, how are we going to power this market without oil?
D) How do we provide acces to energy if not through oil powered infrastructure?
E) Those with money will flock to it, but what of those who cannot afford it?
F) What about our ever increasing power bills? You don't think this has something to do with oil demand?



The other issue with gasoline consumption and efficiency is that the performance of a gasoline powered car is directly (and inversely) related to its mileage, simply because larger cylinders suck more gasoline even when they aren’t being used to their full potential.

This is not at all the case with electric cars. Energy efficiency has nothing to do with performance. Rather, performance is related to the size of the battery pack and the motor. And a larger motor will if anything have better energy efficiency than a smaller one. In other words, the high performance Tesla Roadster will have just as much energy efficiency as a lesser performing wimpy electric car. The same cannot be said for performance with gasoline powered cars. So it can be expected that with a switch to electric cars, Jevon’s paradox will not occur to any large degree.

=======================================================

What does car performance have to do with Jevon's Paradox? Do you actually understand Jevon's Paradox? Seems to me you think it validates everything you say because electricity (you believe) doesn't come from oil. BUT IT DOES COME FROM OIL!!!!!

You're obsessed with personal transport, and don't even attempt to argue any of my other points. Look around the room your in (as I told David McColl) EVERY SINGLE THING IN THE ROOM YOUR IN REQUIRED OIL!

I have no questions on this point that have not already been asked (since the only thing you talk about are electric cars).



“The ability for enough people to purchase these cars to make the difference you claim would require amounts of loans and risk not seen in a long time. Today people need loans to buy big ticket items, and many people cannot qualify. Unless people can afford to buy these cars, having an economic mix of those who can afford electric and those that need fossil fuels will not work.”
____________________________________________________

I’m not sure what your point is here. I am suggesting that if a person has decided to buy a new car, then soon electric cars will be a viable alternative that offer consumers both lower costs and much lower carbon emissions. Whether that person needs a loan to buy the car is irrelevant and has nothing to do with whether they will decide to buy an EV or ICE car.

===============================================================

Ok, once again.. I WAS CITING THESE, I AM NOT STATING THIS, PROFESSIONALS WHO HAVE ACTUALLY DONE THE RESEARCH YOU HAVEN'T SAID THIS. I tend to believe those who actually have facts to back their claims that didn't originate from the automotive industry trying to sell them.

A) If loans are irrelevant, how will large amounts of people afford these new wonderful (wannabe) oil-less cars?
B) Considering our entire monetary system works off oil reserves and anticipated economic growth, how would you go about providing large amounts of credit for the middle class and "working poor" without oil?
C) What about the people who haven't decided to buy a new car? Those who can't buy a new car?
D) Forget cars, what about houses, businesses? These don't need oil based loans? Ahh yes, I forgot, in your tiny world being able to drive places is all that matters, even though the place your driving from and to is oil powered. The fuel efficiency alone will definitley offset an 8% decline. Hell, lets be conservative and say a 5% decline in daily oil production. Prove to me with valid math that electric cars will offset a 5% decline (around 4million barrles / day) in daily oil production.
E) How are loans irrelevant? Loans are based on predicted economic growth, aka oil consumption. You are ignoring the parts that don't fit your story. Loans are needed for people to get cars, period. $30,000 (Using your figures) still is not affordable in cash.



“To top this off, how do we create green electric powered transport trucks, boats, airplanes and military aircraft? Green powered cranes and other construction machines, not to mention the fossil fuels used to build those.”

Yes, those are more challenging applications, but let’s start with the low hanging fruit first, shall we? That fruit is the commuter car which currently unnecessarily relies on gasoline when electricity is a much better option. Many of those more challenging applications you mention could use hydrogen fuel cells, which I am the first to admit, present major problems, but they are still better than diesel.

Anyways, once battery EV’s have been out for a while, the rapidly advancing battery technology may reach a point where it could solve some of those issues you raise above.

================================================================

A) We can't start with the low hanging fruit first, as the "low hanging fruit" you are referring to, is mass-produced by the thigns i'm referring to. Or are you under the belief that all materials and components for a car are extracted, built, and assembled all in the same country?
B) "rapidly advancing battery technology"... like .. what? lithium? Once again, cite your sources. Stating there are advancments but not providing any examples makes me believe these "rapid advancements" are equivilent to David McColls' future fantasy replacement for oil. As I stated above, use real world technologies we have today. Not speculated technologies we proabbly won't be developing in the 4 years before the peak oil crunch hits hard.
C) Awhile? Well we don't have awhile, Saudi Arabia annouced peak oil on monday: http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/2010/02/15/saudi-energy-adviser-alarmed-about-peak-oil-pushes-for-diversified-economy/
D) In regards to Hydrogen, you must have obviously overlooked all of the requirements I cited for what it would take to implement hydrogen on the industrial level. Do you need to see them again? Or are you insistent that replacing over 100k of gas stations just in the U.S. isn't an issue and won't put demand on oil?



“Some will say that the problems associated with lead-acid batteries as pointed out by Dr. Youngquist can be resolved by moving to lithium-ion batteries. Unfortunatley, lithium is in such short supply globally that electric car manufacturers are already anticipating problems sourcing it even though only a tiny fraction of westerners currently drive electric cars:”

This is an urban myth, there is more than enough lithium and other metals to supply us all with EV’s, the issue is how quickly production can be ramped up.

=================================================================

A) An "urban myth", yet i provide names, sources, and proof, and you provide your opinion. Prove to me this is an urban myth, cite your sources, don't just state crap like its fact. I can provide multiple materials saying lithium is depleting, can you provide any material that says it is not?
B) If its so mythical, why has the price of lithium sky rocketed?
C) Metals are extracted using oil, transported with oil, and finally produced into something with oil, or do you disagree with this? Do you think this WILL NOT affect our cost of living, electric cars or not?
D) Production can only be ramped up with investment, investment comes from oil. Production will never be ramped up without buyers, buyers likewise, buy because they can get loans which are derived from oil. Explain to me what capitalist company is going to ramp up production in a tight credit market with oil going for $80 / barrel? Do you understand that increased oil cost = increased car manufacturing cost? Do you understand that just because a car, manufactured with oil today is $30,000, if oil goes up 200% tomrrow that car could be upwards of $70,000? Do you understand at all that businesses must pay for their production and this cost is directly related to the cost of oil?



“It would take close to 220,000 square kilometers of solar panels to power the global economy via solar power. This may sound like a marginally manageable number until you realize that the total acreage covered by solar panels in the entire world right now is a paltry 10 square kilometers.”
That’s a tremendous opportunity for growth, don’t you agree? And that’s what’s happening!! The PV industry is doubling every year! 220,000 sounds like a lot until you realize that it is only a square 500 km on each side ……. TO POWER THE WHOLE WORLD!!!!

“As explained a few times in the preceeding paragraphs, oil is simply unmatched in its energy density. A good way to illustrate its density is to analyze what it would take in terms of solar pv panels to generate the enegy necessary to run a typical automobile. Physicist Les Jackson explains that once you account for the typical solar PV efficiency rating of 20%, you would need a solar panel set up measuring almost 100 feet on each side in order to power your car”

This is highly misleading, I’d say even maliciously misleading. I guess you haven’t researched much about the solar car challenges. And it assumes you will be driving your car all day. That is not true. If you have solar panels on your car you will likely be parking it in the sunshine all day. This will accumulate energy over many hours. That energy, if you covered the panelling of your car with typical solar panels, would power your EV to go about 15 km per sunny day. With expected future improvements in PV technology, that would double. That is not an insignificant number! That would cover half the commute of many people. And cost-wise, it is competitive with gasoline, but not grid electricity which is 5 times cheaper. This is why it will be a little while before EV’s become covered with PV panels, but it will happen maybe sooner than you think.


=================================

A) "If you have solar panels on your car you will likely be parking it in the sunshine all day" -- unless of course you park underground, or live in one of the many places in the world where it is not sunny all day every day. Seriously, read what you wrote there, and explain to me why that isn't ridiculous and most importantly, unreliable?
B) "I guess you haven’t researched much about the solar car challenges." -- Yea, cause like I just said, I have been citing everything I stated, not stating it myself. So you are actually saying that energy professioanls have not researched solar energy. Good one! BTW: WHERES YOUR SOURCE AGAIN THAT PROVES THIS IS NOT MADE UP CRAP TO MAKE YOUR STORY SOUND GOOD?
C) Once again, you forget about all other oil applications. Please explain then how solar will account for the energy density lost by not using oil? How will we build solar plants without oil?
D) "220,000 sounds like a lot until you realize that it is only a square 500 km on each side ……. TO POWER THE WHOLE WORLD!!!!" UHH.. Did you bother reading the second part of that? The part about there only being 10km Sq at current? Did you consider the oil power that goes into transmission lines? maintenance of those lines? backup energy? The oil needed for 220,000km of solar panel constructio nand transportation to begin with?



“Are there ways around some of these limitations? Yes, if you have a tremendous amout of money at your disposal. Some people, for instance, are already experimenting with "plug-in hybrids" which they charge using solar panels on their homes. The problem is that a typical solar-pv set up designed to deliver all of a home's power in sunny California will run $50,000. The plug-in hybrid car will run another $50,000. If you want to charge the plug-in hybrid using solar panels in addition to powering your home, you will need to double or triple the pv capacity on your roof. Even in a place with a lot of sunshine, you're looking at a set-up costing $150,000-$200,000 by the time it's all said and done.”

This just isn’t true, it’s wildly exaggerated. Firstly, the Nissan Leaf will cost $30,000, not $50,000, that is dated information. Plus, the plugin car costs about $25 a month to charge. Plus, it barely requires any maintenance and depreciates slowly. In California it costs $30,000 to put a PV installation on your roof (http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-pricing.aspx). With Obama’s stimulus spending, they will pay for half of it. Then it becomes profitable for the homeowner to do this (the electricity is sold at fair rates). So costs need to come down by 50% for it to be profitable on its own feet. Doesn’t seem like a tall order to me! What happens is that you generate electricity in the daytime and sell excess that you don’t use to the grid (when demand is greatest, conveniently), and then buy it back at night when you need it. And if done on a regional scale like all of the US west, then the intermittency of solar generation is predictable and fairly easily managed. The idea that we are going to have to build MORE electrical generation plants to support solar panels is simply absurd. At worst, all we’ll do is turn them off in the day, ready to go, and then fire them up at night. Right there, fossil fuel emissions would be dramatically reduced.
===================================

A) Ok, so $30,000.. yea that $20,000 definitely makes it so it is more affordable for working poor with no loans which you deem irrelevant simply because.. well I don't even know. Why are loans that people need to purchase stuff irrelevant again?
B) How do you know it requires little maintenance and depreciates slowly? Once again, cite your sources, although.. considering that the car isn't even out yet, I would have to say that there is no basis for saying that other than to make your argument *sound* better. Or it is one of their marketing ploys.
C) Then it becomes profitable for the homeowner to do this (the electricity is sold at fair rates). Ahh yes, fair rates. Just like fair rates now? Do you even have any sources?
D) "So costs need to come down by 50% for it to be profitable on its own feet" -- Hmm, that would mean oil prices need to come down. Yet with Saudi announcing their peak, prices have been going up. This like most market activity is not representative of much, but I still don't see how its no tall order. especially because the problem still comes back down to available investment capitol to put into technology like this, and this capitol is rapidly disappearing. How exacly would this cost saving be accomplished?
E) "With Obama’s stimulus spending, they will pay for half of it" -- I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but Obama and Bush have been printing money off left, right, and center. Do you think governments can just print cash at will without adverse economic effects? Your argument here is in itself admittance of the failings of the capitalist, economic growth system which you claim can work in an oil derivitive energy world. Please explain to me how businesses needing bailouts with oil availability, will not need them in your new lower consumption ridiculous fantasy economy? how are you going to provide denser, more powerful energy for cheap? And no, you cannot say electricity. Electricity is not a power source! Keep in mind the source of power must run the industrialized society which must build and maintain the roads, bridges, and tunnels that support your electric car. Once again, this all must be done with heavy machinery that uses large amounts of oil both in their operation and construction. Water pipes, treatment, all these things must factor in. Do not tell me fuel efficieny will offset a decline from all of the things that use oil.

And it has been demonstrated that if wind and solar installations are connected to a continent wide grid, market penetration can reach over 30%, which is significant. What happens when a central nuclear power plant goes down? You have the same issue don’t you?

=============================

A) a continent wide grid? Let me guess conrolled by oil powered computers, built with oil extracted materials, transported around the world in either boats or aircraft which we'll get to later, as they are not low hanging fruit. So really your saying no solution for that yet, but no reason to think there isn't one. Are you living in the same world i am?
B) Once again, cite your sources, far as I am councerned, you are making this up to validate your far out theory on how a change in personal transport (to electricity which is generated from oil anyway), will save us. My final question is, have you honestly read any of the material here? Or do you think you just know better and don't need to prove anything? Your information is doubtful at best.



In conclusion, you haven't read a single thing I posted beyond what you wanted to hear. You ignore every part that doesn't fit your story, IE: how are we going to grow enough food and biofuels, and generate enough cheap electricity (which you didn't even bother to counter the numbers of energy density anyway) to provide for an ever growing population? Your points are basically irrelevant as they address only the things you see as important. You think personal transport is more important than industrial transport? Well how do we build cars? .. Industrial transport. How do we get them once they are built? Industrial transport. Did you even bother to consider the oil used in creating the car? AND CITE YOUR DAMN SOURCES!!!!!!!


what is my point? Industrialized civilization as we know it is about to end, and no amount of electric cars with low interest oil based loans is going to change that. If you seriously want to debate with me, address all my points, not just the ones you think you have an answer to. Read the articles I posted, read the facts, watch the videos. Quite frankly, you just made yourself look like an idiot to anyone who has bothered actually understanding the information I present.

Reply to this Comment
posted by Innadiated   Saturday, February 20, 2010 6:07 PM
Heres a piece I wrote on the automotive industry in general.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=app_2373072738&gid=276821204421#!/topic.php?uid=276821204421&topic=13714

posted by Concerned Canadian   Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:00 AM
“it is plainly obvious you have not actually read this entire post, nor any of the links or facts as almost 90% of your argument has been countered already.”

Not true, I have read many of your comments, although they tend to ramble on in an incoherent fashion so it’s hard to follow the points you are trying to make. I don’t follow your links if you are saying something which I know is not true.

Again, I am not going to disagree with you that we have a heavily oil dependent society, and that isn’t going to fundamentally change for a long time. However, what I am pointing out is that the transition away from oil as the primary source of energy for transportation will be happening fairly soon and will pick up momentum when it starts, to become unstoppable. This will have dramatic and far reaching positive impacts for society in general. The corresponding drop in demand for oil as a result of this shift will then allow our oil resources to be more widely used for the other applications like manufacturing etc. which you correctly state will be more difficult to wean from oil, although still possible. To this end I have previously presented evidence to support that claim. I haven’t provided many links, but you can have confidence that any numbers I put forward are correct. I am a mechanical engineer working in consulting and I have a varied exposure to a wide range of industries, including energy production, and I have confirmed my analysis many times from many different sources, and in my life I have noticed that I am very rarely wrong, so I have confidence in what I say.

In response to your specific questions:

“A) "when optimized for mass adoption", when will this be and what exactly does it take for "mass adoption"?”

Mass adoption means when we have large factories pumping out electric cars, and when the supply lines for all the raw materials mature. Then price will come down quite low and fully competitive electric cars will be on the market for less money than what we can currently choose from. Again, I must repeat that I am not arguing that these factories will not use oil. But what they will do is displace the existing factories which are devoted to pumping out ICE cars. Right now Nissan is apparently producing lithium ion batteries for $300-400 per kWh. Most of that cost is in manufacture, not raw materials, so it is reasonable to expect that within a few years we will have available batteries for cars that go 200 km per charge, last at least 10 years, and cost as little as $5000. Then add on $15,000 for the rest of the car and bam, $20,000 for a car that uses no gasoline and costs 1/10 the price of an ICE to drive.

“B) How are they going to become sustainable, separate themselves from the energy establishment, and remain in an economy? Or are you saying they wouldn't be in the economy?”

They would of course still be in the economy, but the old paradigm of “big energy company selling energy to individual consumers” would be shattered. With solar panels on people’s roofs, consumers would also be producers. While it would be very difficult to completely separate themselves from the energy economy, with electric cars a large fraction of energy consumers could very dramatically reduce their demand for external energy if they wanted to, and would only require the energy needed to manufacture the products they buy. One possibility is that their old spent batteries from their electric cars could be used as solar energy storage for night time. In this case, people with solar panels on their roofs (and in sunny climates) could separate themselves from the grid if they wanted. This is only 5-10 years away since the first EV’s are coming to market this year.

“C) If they were not in the economy, how would they provide for themselves?”

They would still be in the economy, they would just no longer be buying gasoline, and depending on where they live, they could become energy independent.

“D) If they are in the economy, how are their lives not affected by peak oil and an increased cost of living from having to buy consumer products at ever inflated rates that comes from the base cost of the energy required to produce in the first place? Lets assume the person we are referring to doesn't even have a drivers license, and gets by bussing.”

Well when the majority of society moves away from gasoline then the demand and price for gasoline will drop, and then consumer products which require oil to manufacture will drop in price. This will buy us lots more time to deal with weaning the rest of our economies off oil.

“E) Is this adaptation not going to take a ton of oil in itself?”

No, we just start making and buying electric cars instead of gasoline powered cars. The ICE’s will work their way through the system in a couple decades and end up at the auto wreckers ready to be recycled into new EV’s!!

“F) What would an "adaptation" consist of? Please explain step by step, and I will tell you why oil is needed for every one.”

See my answer to (E) above. Oil will be needed in the manufacture of those cars but I’m not arguing that it won’t. But if we really wanted to get away from oil then we could use biofuels for this instead, like from algae or sugarcane. The low demand for biofuels for this application as compared with using biofuels to drive our cars will mean that such a system could conceivably work.

“G) Is this not going to take a lot more in terms of loans & risk? People must be able to afford the change in the first place, we are already in a credit crisis and for your "plan" to be even somewhat effective, EVERYONE would have to be able to afford to get a new car.”

I don’t see why people would not be able to afford an EV when it’s cheaper than a gasoline powered car, yet somehow they would be able to afford a gasoline powered car which is more expensive than an EV??? I don’t follow your backwards logic. People that currently have cars will eventually get rid of them, this seems to be about every 10 years I would guess. The next time they get rid of their car and buy a new one, rational consumers will buy an EV because it offers so much more value for so little cost.

“H) Other than their car, how else would people "separate from the energy establishment"? Would they still have phones? The Internet? Power? How about a wide-range of imported foods like we currently have? Water? Public service like Police, Fire, and Ambulances? What about our Military? Heating?”

You are splitting hairs here, taking what I am saying to the ridiculous extreme. Yes, people are still going to need to power those things, again what I am saying is that they will no longer be buying gasoline!!! You seem to be suggesting that taking one huge step towards achieving sustainability is a bad idea because it isn’t perfect! I don’t see what your alternative suggestions are ---- kill 6 billion people???

“I) How do we ensure EVERYONE switches to these non-oil, oil based machines? (If such a thing could exist)”

Well in a free society I certainly hope we DON’T force everyone to switch. Rational consumers will naturally switch because it is better technology. Kind of like how digital cameras destroyed film, digital music destroyed LP’s, etc etc.

“J) How are we going to keep car companies profitable without having to buy new cars every few years which is a huge resource waste?”

The ones that don’t switch over to EV’s will go out of business. The ones that do move forward will have great opportunities, that’s how capitalism works!!!

“K) What do we do with the 800million Petro powered cars, boats, airplanes, and military vehicles?”

As explained in (G), cars will work their way through the system and be recycled into new EV’s. Boats, airplanes and military vehicles will be more challenging but solutions may present themselves once EV’s become widely adopted.

“The construction of an average car consumes the energy equivalent of approximately 20 barrels (840 gallons) of oil.”

So how much of that “oil equivalent” is actually oil? Because if a significant portion of that is electricity and natural gas, then this isn’t oil!

“A) Ok, so there are roughly 800million cars on the road today. Do you think we have enough oil at an affordable cost to replace every single one?”

Sure, there is lots of oil still remaining and when demand for oil for fuel drops then we can instead us it to build EV’s.

“B) Enough oil to adapt our transportation infrastructure to support whatever technology runs our new cars? Replace every gas station?”

We don’t need a new infrastructure, you already have one if you have a wall socket near to where you park your car.

“A) Biofuels require petrochemicals to grow in quantities large enough to fuel personal transport.”

Depends on the particular biofuel and where it is grown. Some don’t need much at all. And we wouldn’t be using biofuels to fuel personal transport, we’d be using electricity.

“B) All land used for biofuels cannot be used for food.. are you saying we have no need to eat? With an ever growing oil-bloated population?”

There are other options like algae, and using waste biomass to make biofuels. These aren’t perfect solutions but they are possible if demand isn’t too great. With a switch to EV’s we would no longer have an oil bloated population.

“C) If we were going to go with biofuels, well that would mean we would need to continue importing our food, no oil used there?”

Not if biofuels are only used for specialized applications as I’ve explained above, then demand won’t be so great that it cuts in to food production.

“D) How would we distribute biofuels?”

I don’t know, the same way we distribute petrochemicals? In pipelines?

“E) What would manage the market that dictates their cost?”

Supply and demand?

“F) How would we harvest them without the power of oil?”

Electric vehicles or biofuels?

“A) Given that todays market exists entirely because of oil, how can you say the demand curve is not elastic?”

I think by definition you just answered your own question. If we historically had no alternative to oil, then isn’t that an inelastic demand curve?

posted by Concerned Canadian   Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:03 AM
“B) How will a computer generated, high powered market run without oil in the first place?”

This is getting tiring. By using the oil that we would not instead be using for gasoline? By switching to biofuels for those applications when that oil runs out?

“If you look, the first sentence of my post says where I am getting my information from. Where are you getting yours from?”

If you have specific requests I am sure I can provide reliable references.

“D) So how would the U.S. move away from oil, being that every single thing they use is based on oil? Every car they drive has 3x its bodyweight in oil used in construction?”

You just said every car uses 800 lbs of “oil equivalent”. Assuming half of this is actually oil, then are you suggesting that cars only weigh 130 pounds (800 lbs / 2 / 3)?

“A) Cheaper? Do you mean from an Oil Plant? Or a Gas Plant? Surely you don't expect to run your hybrid Leaf off Solar or Wind?”

It will cost whatever the market dictates the price of electricity will be. You can run it from gas, coal, solar, wind, nuclear (yes, I know you don’t like nuclear), hydro, whatever you’d like and have access to. If you want you can put solar panels on the roof of your own house if you live in a sunny location and charge it from that. All of the above are significantly better than gasoline, and the only one which isn’t cost competitive yet is solar, but that is changing fairly rapidly.

“B) Could you be talking Nuclear? Well no, because a single nuclear plant takes upwards of 16 years to build and once again theres that whole enriching uranium annoyance which uses oil.”

Yayaya, whatever. The revived thorium reactor process promises to deliver as much energy as we can use and produce no radioactive waste (it can actually consume our current nuclear waste). True, that’s still a few decades away though.

“C) Once again the market, how are we going to power this market without oil?”

Already answered 10 times above.

“D) How do we provide acces to energy if not through oil powered infrastructure?”

See above.

“E) Those with money will flock to it, but what of those who cannot afford it?”

What is the “it” you are referring to? As I’ve stated, electricity is 5-10 times cheaper than gasoline.

“F) What about our ever increasing power bills? You don't think this has something to do with oil demand?”

Mine aren’t increasing.

“What does car performance have to do with Jevon's Paradox? Do you actually understand Jevon's Paradox? Seems to me you think it validates everything you say because electricity (you believe) doesn't come from oil. BUT IT DOES COME FROM OIL!!!!!”

Jevon’s paradox states that as efficiency of use of something increases and therefore cost decreases, then consumer behaviour in elastic markets will naturally change to make up those differences. This won’t happen with EV’s because the amount of time people spend in their cars (and therefore the energy they consume to do so) is related only to how practical and pleasant driving is.

“You're obsessed with personal transport, and don't even attempt to argue any of my other points. Look around the room your in (as I told David McColl) EVERY SINGLE THING IN THE ROOM YOUR IN REQUIRED OIL!”

No, I’m obsessed with the low hanging fruit which happens to be personal transport. Yes, everything in my room required oil but this isn’t necessarily true for the future. It could instead come from biofuels if we really needed it to. But I agree that currently it is better to use oil for this until we can figure out how to produce biofuels more environmentally friendly.

“A) If loans are irrelevant, how will large amounts of people afford these new wonderful (wannabe) oil-less cars?”

This is almost getting funny. They will afford them the same way they would otherwise afford a gasoline powered car.

“B) Considering our entire monetary system works off oil reserves and anticipated economic growth, how would you go about providing large amounts of credit for the middle class and "working poor" without oil?”

I think that’s a bit extreme, but I agree that this is why Canada should not be increasing the oil sands’ contribution to our economy. That’s my whole argument!!!! When this inevitable shift to EV’s occurs, Canada is going to be majorly hurting!! And we will have the oil sands to thank!!

“C) What about the people who haven't decided to buy a new car? Those who can't buy a new car?”

Then they won’t buy a new car??? (I don’t have one!)

“D) Forget cars, what about houses, businesses? These don't need oil based loans?”

That’s why I agree with you that we should not be further developing an oil based financial system.

“E) How are loans irrelevant? Loans are based on predicted economic growth, aka oil consumption. You are ignoring the parts that don't fit your story. Loans are needed for people to get cars, period.”

If you have the down payment for a loan to buy a car and are reasonably confident that you will have a job long enough to pay off that loan, then that is all that is needed to get a loan, isn’t it? Loans are only based on predicted economic growth from oil consumption if your economy is centered around oil production. So, in that sense I agree with you. If I was working in the oil sands under the impression that they will continue to provide economic opportunities for Canadians indefinitely, this is not a good situation. But, in the short amount of time it takes to pay off a car loan it will not be an issue.

“A) We can't start with the low hanging fruit first, as the "low hanging fruit" you are referring to, is mass-produced by the thigns i'm referring to”

Oh this is getting dry. I’ve already answered this 10 times.

“B) "rapidly advancing battery technology"... like .. what? lithium? Once again, cite your sources”

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/11/30/nissan-expects-to-double-energy-capacity-of-battery-by-2015/

“C) Awhile? Well we don't have awhile, Saudi Arabia annouced peak oil on Monday”

We only need 15 years if we really had to shift to EV’s. If your predicted peak oil shoots oil prices through the roof then EV’s will become even more popular.

“D) In regards to Hydrogen, you must have obviously overlooked all of the requirements I cited for what it would take to implement hydrogen on the industrial level. Do you need to see them again?”

No, I agree that hydrogen is not practical for widespread adoption. I do not need to be lectured about the problems with hydrogen, as I am the first person to point that out. But it has definite applications for fleet use with large vehicles (like buses) since battery electric vehicles are not up to snuff in that regard yet.

“A) An "urban myth", yet i provide names, sources, and proof, and you provide your opinion. Prove to me this is an urban myth, cite your sources, don't just state crap like its fact. I can provide multiple materials saying lithium is depleting, can you provide any material that says it is not?”

About 8 pounds of lithium is needed per EV.

http://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1434&first=3358&end=3357

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9722.html

http://action.pluginamerica.org/o/2711/images/World-Lithium-Resource-Impact-on-Electric-Vehicles-v1.pdf

“C) Metals are extracted using oil, transported with oil, and finally produced into something with oil, or do you disagree with this”

According to one of the reports above, extraction of lithium requires very little oil. Even if it did, we could always use biofuels if we really needed to, but I’ve said this about 14 times now.

“D) Production can only be ramped up with investment, investment comes from oil”

I’m not even going to respond to this, it’s getting so old.

“Explain to me what capitalist company is going to ramp up production in a tight credit market with oil going for $80 / barrel?”

Ummm, any capitalist company which sees that the 10 trillion dollar gasoline market could be stolen by EV’s?

“Do you understand that just because a car, manufactured with oil today is $30,000, if oil goes up 200% tomrrow that car could be upwards of $70,000?”

But it won’t go up 200% tomorrow. The only reason it spiked in 2008 was because of speculation, not real supply / demand. Your fictitious $70,000 number is ridiculous, I’m not even going to try to analyze where that came from.

“A) "If you have solar panels on your car you will likely be parking it in the sunshine all day" -- unless of course you park underground, or live in one of the many places in the world where it is not sunny all day every day.”

Well then I guess you won’t be using solar panels to power your car then will you? It’s not for everyone! Big deal!

posted by Concerned Canadian   Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:07 AM
“B) "I guess you haven’t researched much about the solar car challenges." -- Yea, cause like I just said, I have been citing everything I stated, not stating it myself. So you are actually saying that energy professioanls have not researched solar energy. Good one! BTW: WHERES YOUR SOURCE AGAIN THAT PROVES THIS IS NOT MADE UP CRAP TO MAKE YOUR STORY SOUND GOOD?”

I never said energy professionals haven’t researched solar power, I said that the way you presented it was highly misleading. Sources? Well, I’ll do it myself. In a sunny location sun shines down with average 400 W/m2 for 8 hours a day. You have 3 m2 of solar panels on your car. They are 20% efficient. The Nissan Leaf gets 225 Wh per mile. Multiply all this out and you get 8 miles, or about 12 km. OK, I exaggerated by 3 km. Sue me.

“220,000 sounds like a lot until you realize that it is only a square 500 km on each side ……. TO POWER THE WHOLE WORLD!!!!" UHH.. Did you bother reading the second part of that? The part about there only being 10km Sq at current”

I don’t know about that 10km figure, it seems suspect and I though about researching it but decided not to. I’ll do some math for you instead. Since the PV industry is doubling every year, let’s say they are currently putting down 1 km2 every year. If each year continues to double then they will reach 500 km2 in 8 years. Let’s be generous and give them 30 years. Still impressive, eh?

“Did you consider the oil power that goes into transmission lines? maintenance of those lines? backup energy? The oil needed for 220,000km of solar panel constructio nand transportation to begin with?”

I’ve answered this many times. Just because it isn’t a perfect solution does not mean it’s not a first step in the right direction. Your alternatives please?

“A) Ok, so $30,000.. yea that $20,000 definitely makes it so it is more affordable for working poor with no loans which you deem irrelevant simply because.. well I don't even know. Why are loans that people need to purchase stuff irrelevant again?”

Because if they’ve decided to take out a loan to buy a new car then whether it is gas or electric powered is irrelevant to them being able to afford the loan in the first place?

“B) How do you know it requires little maintenance and depreciates slowly? Once again, cite your sources,”

I don’t need sources, it’s basic common sense. ICE cars have hundreds, even thousands of moving parts and fluid going everywhere. EV’s have about 30 moving parts and very little fluid. What breaks down on your car now? Well, EV’s won’t have that problem. Sorry, I’m not going to provide references for that.

“C) Then it becomes profitable for the homeowner to do this (the electricity is sold at fair rates). Ahh yes, fair rates. Just like fair rates now? Do you even have any sources?”

Yes, I looked this up. California enacted laws governing what the rates will be for homeowners selling solar electricity and they provided a table. The rates were fair. But I lost the link and at this point I am too exhausted to look for it, you can search if you want.

“D) "So costs need to come down by 50% for it to be profitable on its own feet" -- Hmm, that would mean oil prices need to come down. Yet with Saudi announcing their peak, prices have been going up”

When EV’s take over the world oil prices will drop.

“E) "With Obama’s stimulus spending, they will pay for half of it" -- I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but Obama and Bush have been printing money off left, right, and center. Do you think governments can just print cash at will without adverse economic effects?”

I can barely stand to read you anymore. That is not what I said. I never said that this level of spending is sustainable, I was merely using it as an example to show how close rooftop PV systems are to being competitive. Sorry, but I am not going to enter into a debate with you about US fiscal policy, on which I probably agree with you anyways.

“A) a continent wide grid? Let me guess conrolled by oil powered computers, built with oil extracted materials, transported around the world in either boats or aircraft which we'll get to later, as they are not low hanging fruit. So really your saying no solution for that yet, but no reason to think there isn't one. Are you living in the same world i am?”

Already answered 25 times. This is the first step in the right direction, and the issues you speak of can be addressed at another time, or concurrently if you like. If you are going to wait around for a 100% perfect solution right off the bat, you will never solve problems. Then you become a complainer, not a problem solver.

“In conclusion, you haven't read a single thing I posted beyond what you wanted to hear. You ignore every part that doesn't fit your story, IE: how are we going to grow enough food and biofuels, and generate enough cheap electricity (which you didn't even bother to counter the numbers of energy density anyway) to provide for an ever growing population?”

You are just angry and want to argue your point to death. What numbers of energy density? They are irrelevant because a 250 horse power motor for an EV is the size of a small watermelon. Compare this with even a 100 hp ICE. So take all the space and weight you’ve saved with the electric motor and gas tank removed, and instead fill it with batteries. Even if the energy density of batteries is 10 times less than gasoline you can still easily fit 300 km worth of battery range in an EV.

You ramble on and on and on, repeating yourself over and over and over and it becomes very difficult to follow you. I do not read your references if I know what you say is incorrect. It seems like the more that you have been proven wrong, the more shrill you become, which is typical of luddites trying to defend a tenuous argument.

“what is my point? Industrialized civilization as we know it is about to end, and no amount of electric cars with low interest oil based loans is going to change that.”

OK, then go run and hide in a cave with all your other screaming chicken little friends who aren’t making any effort to improve society, and clear the way for people like me who actually can see viable solutions.

(wipes forehead and goes to bed)

posted by Concerned Canadian   Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:30 AM
Oops, I made a math mistake with “Since the PV industry is doubling every year, let’s say they are currently putting down 1 km2 every year. If each year continues to double then they will reach 500 km2 in 8 years. Let’s be generous and give them 30 years. Still impressive, eh?”

That should have read:
“Since the PV industry is doubling every year, let’s say they are currently putting down 1 km2 every year. If each year continues to double then they will reach 220,000 km2 in 17 years. Let’s be generous and give them 30 years.”

Please stop the Sabre rattling
posted by Groundpounder   Monday, February 22, 2010 11:14 AM
Greetings Everyone

Although comments made by Innadiated and Concerned Canadian have some validity a lot of it is not productive.
I will wait until David McColl comments again before I post another comment, hopefully you haven't scare him away with all the rhetoric. Also, where is the original commentator of this topic(Steven)?

Here's to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The trouble-makers. The round heads in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They're not fond of rules, and they have no respect for the status-quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify, or vilify them. But the only thing you can't do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as the crazy ones, I see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do.
GROUNDPOUNDER

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posted by Innadiated   Tuesday, February 23, 2010 4:25 PM
Yea, steven.. yay or nay?

And yup, I wanna see David McColls argument as well..

As for the status of peak oil currently well:

Greece: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Fuel-shortage-hits-Greece-as-apf-1182321877.html?x=0&.v=3

France: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/business/energy-resources/French%20pumps%20amid%20strike/2598562/story.html


Remember, its not running out of the resource we have to worry about, its whether people can still have lives and will work!

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